Type 2: Low BMI people

[zed007]

What % of T2 are people in the underweight or lower end of normal weight category? And why is this ? Simply because of less organ pressure in the gut region? Do skinny people like me who eat chocolate and sweets burn it quicker ? Surely I'm not invincible ?

 

[Winnie53]

@zed007 when I began my insulin resistance journey 35 years ago with hypoglycemia - (followed by gestational diabetes, pre-diabetes, and type 2 diabetes) - I weighed 100 pounds. I had an incredible metabolism. Those were the days...good times!

When women asked me what I ate, they rolled their eyes (which was not intended kindly). Years later, my weight peaked at 180 pounds. Today, thanks to a 20 pound loss years ago, and another net 18 pound loss last year - (lost 26 pounds, gained 8 pound back over Christmas) - I now weigh 145 pounds.

My understanding is that "skinny" type 2's have fatty liver. They, you, still have a problem. The good news? Dark chocolate, 70% cocao or higher, is low carb. A glass of red wine is too.

 

[Daibell]

Hi. I understand around 15% of so-called T2s are not overweight. There will be various reasons but a noticeable proportion will probably be mis-diagnosed Late onset T1 where the lack of insulin causes the body to start burning fat or even muscle for energy; I am one of those. The carbs cannot be metabolised fully so blood sugar goes up.

 

[Brunneria]

T2 is a condition of insulin resistance, and you can have insulin resistance at any weight.

However, the longer you have insulin resistance, the more likely you are to gain weight. There are quite a few T1s who gain weight through insulin resistance too.

My personal view (based on experience) is that our bodies cope for years with insulin resistance before they fail enough to start the weight gain. Often the typical 'fat T2' has had insulin resistance and possibly even actual diabetes for YEARS before the diagnosis. And if their T2 had come on quicker, or the doc had noticed the signs earlier, they may well have been diagnosed T2 while still slim...

Unfortunately, even doctors seem to believe that getting fat is a moral failing, not an insulin imbalance. Until they grasp that basic concept, we will still see people unnecessarily doomed to a kind of helpless obesity, while following official diet guidelines.

I got insulin intolerance issues 10 years before the weight gain started and 30 years before I hit the arbitrary T2 diagnosis level.

 

[Winnie53]

I listened to a lecture by Joseph Pizzorno, ND this year on persistant organic pollutants (POPs) - (pesticides, herbicides, etc.) - effects on our health.

He described a study in which obese people were divided into 4 groups. The first group had minimal POPs in their bodies, the fourth group had high levels of POPs, and the other two groups fell somewhere in between. Guess what? The first group of obese people had no type 2 diabetes, the fourth group of obese people had the most type 2 diabetes.

I'm still reeling from this information. This may explain why we're seeing an explosion of type 2 diabetes throughout the world now.

I agree with Brunneria, weight has little to do with diabetes, though it can precede and lead to weight gain. That's what happened to me.

This girl now eats organic, non-GMO, and is more conscious of avoiding unnecessary plastic packaging.

Here's a ten minute lecture by Dr. Pizzorno in 2012 in which he explains POPs relationship to type 2 diabetes in obese people. If pressed for time, go to the 6 minute mark and watch the last 4 minutes...

Dr. Pizzorno is coming out with a book next year with information on how to begin to eliminate POPs from the body. While this information was very upsetting for me, I found it encouraging too because if I have POPs in my body, and I eliminate them, perhaps doing so will take me further down the road in restoring my health.

 

[Winnie53]

@Daibell, my understanding is that the difference between type 2's and type 1.5's/type 1's is that the latter is caused by the immune system attacking the pancreas. This is not the case with type 2's. I'm curious. Prior to developing diabetes, did you have an autoimmune condition or an intolerance or sensitivity to specific foods? Examples would be gluten (wheat, rye, barley, perhaps oats) and casein (milk protein). I'm sorry this happened to you.

 

[seadragon]

I agree with Brunneria - although a few years back I would probably have been one of those in the ignorant 'why don't fat people eat less and do more exercise" camp. It's not until you have a diagnosis (pre-diabetes in my case) and are threatened with lifelong medication that there is much incentive to understand the true processes that go on in the body. My BMI had always been in the healthy range but I had noticed that my body's 'set-point' (the weight it liked to stay at regardless of what I ate or did) had risen in stages over the preceding 10 years or so. When I was younger it was 55kg, then 58 kg then 63 then 65. The increases were getting quicker and I didn't seem to be able to do anything about it. I was trying to mostly eat the so called healthy diet, cutting down on fats and eating wholegrain everything and I was just getting fatter even though I was doing a lot of exercise.
The only reason I had ever checked my blood sugar levels was because my mother had been diagnosed as type 2 in her late 70s despite being quite slim so without that impetus i'd probably never have checked and never have come to this site or discovered the wonderful dietdoctor.com. I had had gestational diabetes ( was not overweight then and did not put on much weight in pregnancy and lost it all immediately after the birth) but the doctors then hadn't been overly concerned and it wasn't until recently I learned this meant you were more at risk for getting type 2 later on
Since following the low carb high fat lifestyle I have lost over a stone and reduced my HbA1c to normal levels. Unfortunately for me it hasn't ended my problems, as I am aware that if I went back to my previous high carb diet as advised by the NHS, then my problems would start again.
Losing weight hasn't cured my insulin resistance and I still get spikes if I eat high carb foods.

 

[Dark Horse]

I listened to a lecture by Joseph Pizzorno, ND this year on persistant organic pollutants (POPs) - (pesticides, herbicides, etc.) - effects on our health.

He described a study in which obese people were divided into 4 groups. The first group had minimal POPs in their bodies, the fourth group had high levels of POPs, and the other two groups fell somewhere in between. Guess what? The first group of obese people had no type 2 diabetes, the fourth group of obese people had the most type 2 diabetes.

I'm still reeling from this information. This may explain why we're seeing an explosion of type 2 diabetes throughout the world now.

I agree with Brunneria, weight has little to do with diabetes, though it can precede and lead to weight gain. That's what happened to me.

This girl now eats organic, non-GMO, and is more conscious of avoiding unnecessary plastic packaging.

Here's a ten minute lecture by Dr. Pizzorno in 2012 in which he explains POPs relationship to type 2 diabetes in obese people. If pressed for time, go to the 6 minute mark and watch the last 4 minutes...

Dr. Pizzorno is coming out with a book next year with information on how to begin to eliminate POPs from the body. While this information was very upsetting for me, I found it encouraging too because if I have POPs in my body, and I eliminate them, perhaps doing so will take me further down the road in restoring my health.

A lot of people think he is a quack.

 

[wiserkurtious]

I feel like I can relate to this,I was diagnosed type 1 last july after been rushed in with DKA and on a drip for 3 days,Slowly I came off insulin and still o insulin to this day.! also had GAD results done and all came back negative,I've always been active but my eating habits,lets say I could eat what I want and still maintain my weight which was always around 11 stone.Now I'm eating much healthier and running at least 3 miles a day. I@ve always wondered and even asked is it possible I could be type 2,skinny fat person is how I explained to my diabetic nurse

 

[Daibell]

@Daibell, my understanding is that the difference between type 2's and type 1.5's/type 1's is that the latter is caused by the immune system attacking the pancreas. This is not the case with type 2's. I'm curious. Prior to developing diabetes, did you have an autoimmune condition or an intolerance or sensitivity to specific foods? Examples would be gluten (wheat, rye, barley, perhaps oats) and casein (milk protein). I'm sorry this happened to you.

Hi. I had been going to the gym for years and never been overweight with a reasonable diet but suddenly started losing weight unexpectedly. I was (mis) diagnosed by default as a T2 and after a few years when all the tablets failed I went onto insulin. I had GAD and c-peptide tests done privately and my GAD was negative; I have no known auto-immune conditions. My c-peptide showed low insulin. Shortly before diagnosis some other blood tests showed some inflammation in the body with no obvious cause. In summary, to me this indicates that a negative GAD test doesn't exclude T1 as the islet cells can be damaged thru causes other than auto-immunity. I'm suspicious of a virus or pancreatitis in my case.

 

[Winnie53]

Thank you @Daibell for explaining to me: type 1 doesn't always have an autoimmune cause, and it's best to have the GAD and c-peptide tests. I haven't really begun to dig into the type 1 world. Learning how to manage type 2 is still keeping me hopping. Glad you don't have any autoimmune conditions, the type 1 diabetes by itself is a lot to manage on its own.

 

[Winnie53]

A lot of people think he is a quack.

Okay, so you're saying Pizzorno is a quack and that those who did the NHANES study are quacks too. Keep in mind he didn't do the original research. He's just reporting what was found in the research. I haven't read the original study. Have you? Perhaps we should both do that before dismissing the finding that obese people with no POPs levels don't have type 2 diabetes and obese people with high POPs level have significantly more type 2 diabetes.

I don't know enough yet, but I'm concerned so I'm putting this information out there in the hopes that those far smarter than I will evaluate this research.

I should add here that when my diabetes journey began in my early 20's, I weighed in the 95 - 105 pound range, ate a reasonably healthy diet - (breakfast was an egg and toast, lunch was whatever the school lunch was, and dinner consisted of meat or poultry with one to two vegetables and rice or potato; desserts were mimimal, a small square of chocolate) - but grew up in an household that was regularly sprayed with chemicals to control for fleas (inside) and roaches (outside). I don't know what my POPs - (persistant organic pollutants) - levels are, but it would be interesting to find out.

 

[Kristin251]

J

Hi. I had been going to the gym for years and never been overweight with a reasonable diet but suddenly started losing weight unexpectedly. I was (mis) diagnosed by default as a T2 and after a few years when all the tablets failed I went onto insulin. I had GAD and c-peptide tests done privately and my GAD was negative; I have no known auto-immune conditions. My c-peptide showed low insulin. Shortly before diagnosis some other blood tests showed some inflammation in the body with no obvious cause. In summary, to me this indicates that a negative GAD test doesn't exclude T1 as the islet cells can be damaged thru causes other than auto-immunity. I'm suspicious of a virus or pancreatitis in my case.[/QUOTE

My GAD was positive over 250 and c peptide shows very little insulin but I as well suspect a really bad virus I had. Everything went downhill from there.

 

[Winnie53]

@Kristin251 I'm reposting your response to @Daibell because it's interesting and supports his experience...

Kristin's response: "My GAD was positive over 250 and c peptide shows very little insulin but I as well suspect a really bad virus I had. Everything went downhill from there."

 

[JohnEGreen]

Okay, so you're saying Pizzorno is a quack and that those who did the NHANES study are quacks too. Keep in mind he didn't do the original research. He's just reporting what was found in the research. I haven't read the original study. Have you? Perhaps we should both do that before dismissing the finding that obese people with no POPs levels don't have type 2 diabetes and obese people with high POPs level have significantly more type 2 diabetes.

I don't know enough yet, but I'm concerned so I'm putting this information out there in the hopes that those far smarter than I will evaluate this research.

I should add here that when my diabetes journey began in my early 20's, I weighed in the 95 - 105 pound range, ate a reasonably healthy diet - (breakfast was an egg and toast, lunch was whatever the school lunch was, and dinner consisted of meat or poultry with one to two vegetables and rice or potato; desserts were mimimal, a small square of chocolate) - but grew up in an household that was regularly sprayed with chemicals to control for fleas (inside) and roaches (outside). I don't know what my POPs - (persistant organic pollutants) - levels are, but it would be interesting to find out.

"
The third edition of the the Encyclopedia of Natural Medicin recommends inappropriate testing that could lead to the diagnosis of nonexistent problems and inappropriate treatment of many if not most patients who consult naturopaths. For example:

The chapter on hypothyroidism claims (incorrectly) that taking one's armpit temperature upon awakening is a reliable test for thyroid function and that naturopaths prefer treating hypothyroidism with desiccated thyroid. The book also states that "health-food-store thyroid preparations . . . . may provide enough support" to help a mild thyroid problem, even though the FDA requires such products to be hormone-free. Scientific physicians consider desiccated thyroid (made from dried animal glands) inferior because its potency can vary from batch to batch. Synthetic thyroid hormone does the job efficiently. Using a product that might contain no hormone is even more ridiculous.
The chapter on "detoxification" improperly links dental amalgams to "fatigue, headache, insomnia, nerve disorders, high blood pressure, impaired memory and concentration," falsely claims that 25% of Americans suffer from heavy metal poisoning, and advocates periodic fasting plus various supplements and herbs.
Page 112 states that the best way to determine the "body load" of heavy metals is through challenge testing. This advice is pernicious because most people have trace amounts of lead and mercury circulating harmlessly in their blood stream. In challenge testing (also called provoked testing), a chelating agent is administered that temporarily increases excretion. The resultant test report typically suggests abnormalities for which the practitioner recommends "detoxification." [26] The widespread involvement of naturopaths with nonexistent metal toxicity is illustrated by searching with Google. In November 2013, my search for "naturopath + metal toxicity" yielded 31,300 hits and my search for "Naturopath + amalgam" yields 2.3 million hits.
The "Candidiasis" chapter espouses Dr. William Crook's fad diagnosis of "candidiasis hypersensitivity" and includes Crook's three-page questionnaire for determining the probability that "yeast-connected problems are present." The questionnaire does not have the slightest validity.
The chapter on angina gives a glowing recommendation for chelation therapy, which the scientific community regards as worthless.
The chapter on "cellulite" falsely claims that a gotu kola extract has "demonstrated impressive results."
In The Complete Book of Juicing, Murray recommends juices for treating scores of ailments. He also advises everyone to use supplements because "even the most dedicated health advocate . . . cannot possibly meet the tremendous nutritional requirements for optimum health through diet alone." [27] These ideas lack scientific validity.

In another book, Murray claims that juicing is valuable because fresh juice provides the body with "live" enzymes [28]. This idea is absurd. The enzymes in plants help regulate the metabolic function of plants. When ingested, they do not act as enzymes within the human body, because they are digested rather than absorbed intact into the body [29].

Pizzorno and Murray have claimed that "in most instances, the naturopathic alternative offers significant benefits over standard medical practices." That statement is preposterous. For the few illnesses where their encyclopedia acknowledges that medical treatment is essential (because otherwise the patient may die), they propose naturopathic treatment in addition. In many passages, they describe prevailing medical practices inaccurately."

From here
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Naturopathy/naturopathy.html

Definitely a Quack in my opinion

 

[KevinPotts]

My son as a result of my diagnosis did a BG test,his first ever. He was 10.4...

He is 6ft tall, 28" waist, 12% body fat, a champion middle distance runner

It shocked him thank goodness, has started to reduce his carbs and has seen his BG drop to non-diabetic regions.

So definitely can be a serious problem for very slim, very fit people...sorry


Sent from my iPad using DCUK Forum mobile app

 

[Winnie53]

@JohnEGreen I have Dr. Murray's and Dr. Pizzorno's encyclopedia in hand. It is 1,219 pages in length. And as you noted, it's in its 3rd edition.

I've been privileged to work with two excellent specialists in traditional, allopathic medicine who greatly helped me. Others greatly harmed me. Over the past year - (I have numerous chronic health conditions) - I've been greatly helped by both naturopaths and functional medicine practitioners. They all have something to offer, but as with anything, you have to do your research, choose treatments thoughtfully, and confirm that what you're doing is helping with lab tests, sometimes imaging studies, etc.

I'd appreciate your opinion of the specific study mentioned in the last four minutes of Dr. Pizzorno's lecture, that is if you can easily access it.

 

[Kristin251]

My son as a result of my diagnosis did a BG test,his first ever. He was 10.4...

He is 6ft tall, 28" waist, 12% body fat, a champion middle distance runner

It shocked him thank goodness, has started to reduce his carbs and has seen his BG drop to non-diabetic regions.

So definitely can be a serious problem for very slim, very fit people...sorry


Sent from my iPad using DCUK Forum mobile app

Excellent he caught it. Now he can do something about it.
I am slim and kid of fit haha. I used to be an exercise junky bu times have changed.
One of my Drs saw my gad results and said it was odd as I am not obese. REALLY? I'll have your license please. Lol

 

[Winnie53]

@JohnEGreen The study was NHANES III which is huge, and ongoing, so I did a Google search on "NHANES III POPs Diabetes" and got some interesting search results beginning with this one from Diabetes Care (2011)... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3161294/ Note that there are additional studies listed in the right column.

I'm going to try to look into this more later this week, when I have time available again. So far I've only done a quick read through of the above linked study. What's interesting is that there may be a synergistic effect when both obesity and POPs are present. NHANES III spanned the years 1990-1994. Interestingly, what was found regarding POPs and type 2 diabetes is still being discussed in the literature.

From two of Dr. Pizzorno's slides...

[First slide, 6 to 10 minutes into lecture]

"POPs - Exposure & Clinical Relevance

- Of 49 POPs measured in NHANES III, 21 detected in >60% of all participants

Collectively, associated with

- Increased cardiovascular disease and hypertension prevalence, 2-5 fold increased risk (varies by POP type & gender)
- Insulin resistance, diabetes
- Likely that POPs play a role in epidemic of diabetes & obesity"

[Second slide, 8:23 minutes into lecture]

"POPs & Diabetes

- 38-fold risk for diabetes in those with highest levels of 6 POPs (NHANES)
- In people with undetectable levels of POPs, the typically robust association between obesity and diabetes was not observed."

 

[Winnie53]

My son as a result of my diagnosis did a BG test,his first ever. He was 10.4...

He is 6ft tall, 28" waist, 12% body fat, a champion middle distance runner

It shocked him thank goodness, has started to reduce his carbs and has seen his BG drop to non-diabetic regions.

So definitely can be a serious problem for very slim, very fit people...sorry


Sent from my iPad using DCUK Forum mobile app

@KevinPotts our son, who is 28 years old and thin like I was at that age, is already showing signs of developing insulin resistance. His triglycerides are in the 400's, but his fasting blood glucose was fine when I tested him. You got me thinking. I'm going to randomly poke him a few more times.