EU - In or Out + Poll.

[KeithSimpson001]

The maternity rights we have are a direct consequence of a European directive (which I go through in my post above).

Not trusting politicians is a problem (and I would think we are all frustrated by how slippery they are) but not one that is directly related to the EU vote.

The democratic point is that we have elected representatives who chose those who represent us in the European institution that is the EU. The more we participate the more influence we have. The point about population size and proportional voting plays to our favour as the UK is growing at a larger rate than many European countries; if we stay in we can increase our influence. The EU is not a foreign government it is a collective institution representing the interests of 28 different countries; can we always have our own way? No, but neither can anyone else. Consider the opt outs that we have taken; we are not shackled to a runaway train.

The trade point isn't realistic UK GDP was 2,989 billion US dollars in 2014 and China's GDP was 10,355 billion US dollars (those were the most recent dates I could find for both).

The EU 'GDP' was collectively 18,500 billion US dollars in 2014. Who do you think would get a better deal in a trade negotiation? The UK or the EU?

Derris insecticide. I don't know about that but safety measures must in principle be preferable to no regulation? In 2013 EU member states voted for the continent-wide suspension of neonicotinoid pesticides which are widely blamed for the death of so many bees. A wonderful thing, as far as I can see, which would be impossible to do unilaterally.

Lastly, if you want to take on multinational corporations 1 country by itself has nowhere to go. If we increase corporation taxes as a punitive measure against companies doing something we don't like then they can just move elsewhere; it's only through collective strength that we could reign in a Microsoft or a Monsanto.

I think there is a lot wrong with the EU (not least the preposterous shifting between Brussels and Luxembourg) but we are driving off a cliff if we decide to reject it outright.

Thank you though for engaging with this discussion; I really am interested in what you think.

Best

Dillinger

Back in 1975 I voted to stay in a Common MARKET; we are now voting on whether we want to stay in what has evolved to become a European UNION. There is a big difference [the name change tells it all] but those campaigning for remaining in the European Union only want to talk about the 'single market' as if nothing has changed because they know [as you say] that in fact there is a lot wrong with what has evolved to become the European Union. All empires rise & then they fall, often because they become too big; one size rarely fits all for long & the Euro must be a good example of how one one size does not fit all. In fact regarding the Euro, as we are only one of 3 member countries outside the Euro zone [with Denmark & Sweden], remaining in the European Union long term must mean sooner or later & for better or worse, we will have to join the Euro.

If I may briefly return to democracy, we are far from perfect: No proportional representation for the House of Commons [first past the post]; an appointed House of Lords; no English parliament [despite Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland having their own] & referendae only when the governing party is split. My point about trust was that I do not trust our politicians & by extension representative democracy itself; I would therefore prefer to see more referendae on important issues.

I believe there is a liberal case for leaving the European Union. The Liberal party in this country have always been the party to extend democracy & so central to that liberal argument to leave must be that membership is undermining democracy. Mikhail Gornachev once wrote: "The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe"; he was of course refering to the European Union. Also the Liberal party was formed because of a split in the Tory party over free trade. So of course I understand why liberals want free trade with Europe but membership unfortunately takes away our right to negotiate free trade with the rest of the world & waiting for 27 other countries to agree is why the European Union is slow to negotiate anything [yes 10 years for the European Union to negotiate any trade deals but on our own outside, I don't see any trade deal taking so long.. unless it is with the European Union itself of course]. Common external tariffs are about protectionism & not free trade, hence leaving should be the liberal way forward. Finally I don't think liberals like big government & yet [perhaps inevitably] that is what you get from bureaucrats. The problem is that every time government interfers & perhaps for the best of reasons, even Ken Livingstone once acknowledged there can be perverse [undesirable] consequences. Fishing quotas led to dead fish being thrown back into the sea; perverse or what? Of course that is one industry that the European Union has to take responsibility for destroying in our country.

 

[tim2000s]

Of course that is one industry that the European Union has to take responsibility for destroying in our country.

I'm not sure you can blame that on the EU. I think we can safely say that the Edward Heath's Government did that. They had an excellent opportunity on entering the EU to provide some level of protection and deal a great deal better with what was proposed in the CFP and failed miserably. The rest is history. Again, not really an EU issue and much more a UK Government issue.

 

[KeithSimpson001]

I'm not sure you can blame that on the EU. I think we can safely say that the Edward Heath's Government did that. They had an excellent opportunity on entering the EU to provide some level of protection and deal a great deal better with what was proposed in the CFP and failed miserably. The rest is history. Again, not really an EU issue and much more a UK Government issue.

Perhaps that was the price Ted Heath felt he had to pay in order to do the deal but in any event, continued membership of the European Union is what prevents any recovery of our fishing industry. Consider Iceland, Greenland & Norway who have protected their fishing industries by not joining the European Union or in Greenland's case, leaving [yes it is possible for a small country to have the confidence to go it alone]. We hear all the time about jobs, I believe it is now linked to membership, as opposed to dependent as they used to say but we never hear from those campaigning to remain of jobs already lost through membership of the European Union that we could get back.

 

[LaurenMoffitt]

Just been invited to a youth debate at a local university in Tues. Organisers don't appear happy that I'm voting to stay in. I'm Wales based and lots of roads, community projects and education is funded by the EU!! Think its going to get very heated.

 

[Barry Ireland]

There are countless reasons why we should stay in the EU. But that does not mean just to leave it as it is but to stay in to change it from a big business cartel to a genuine co-operative of European nations that care about the health and welfare of its citizens, something that seems lost on the outers, with all the phony promises about diverting money to the NHS. And this from many who have been happy to run down and/or privatise our health system.

One point that seems not to have been made too often is the situation regarding the European Health Insurance Card (EHIC). Do people really believe that, if Britain leaves the EU, other countries will continue to provide free tratment for British citizens? I can't see why they would. Of course, it may be possible to negotiate individual treaties with the remaining member states - all 27 of them - but how long will this take? From my personal experience, this aspect of the EU works really well and provides great protection for all EU citizens, particularly those who have ongoing health problems.

 

[dawnmc]

I find it amusing when I hear people saying 'We can take back control'. What have we lost control of?
The tragic thing is that the 'common' man only see immigration writ large, and its mainly from the north, where we have little immigration. The NHS would shut down, restaurants would close, veg wouldn't get picked, where do we draw the line.
I even heard a young lad saying he would vote out despite his apprenticeship being funded by the EU (fgs).
I don't really understand why in a global world we would want to leave, island mentality maybe.
And why would Europe ever deal with us once we left. I've heard that we could open our markets to Asia and America, but we already do business with them. We are not a manufacturing base anymore, so I don't see what we have offer them.
I'm in, I don't want chaos.
Granted the EU needs an overhaul, because it is a behemoth, maybe the scare of us leaving will be the kick up the bum it needs.

 

[CollieBoy]

Unfortunately if we do stay in, they will probably just give a big gallic shrug and carry on as usual!!

 

[Catlady19]

We all had problems, this is when we should have become United, not cutting up/off countries, we started the war by telling Germant to leave Poland, so we must have had some sort of relationship with them

Exactly, we all had problems, I would imagine each country scuttled back home to try and put their country back together again. I am not sure exactly what our relationship was with Poland but we declared war because Germany invaded them.

 

[Trachet]

 

[Catlady19]

One point that seems not to have been made too often is the situation regarding the European Health Insurance Card (EHIC). Do people really believe that, if Britain leaves the EU, other countries will continue to provide free tratment for British citizens? I can't see why they would. Of course, it may be possible to negotiate individual treaties with the remaining member states - all 27 of them - but how long will this take? From my personal experience, this aspect of the EU works really well and provides great protection for all EU citizens, particularly those who have ongoing health problems.

I believe that those countries outside the EU still use the EHIC without problems and in any case, I would personally always back up travel with private health cover.

 

[Catlady19]

And why would Europe ever deal with us once we left.

Because they import more to us than we export to them?

I've heard that we could open our markets to Asia and America, but we already do business with them

Being in the EU restricts what, where, how, etc.

Granted the EU needs an overhaul, because it is a behemoth, maybe the scare of us leaving will be the kick up the bum it needs

Clearly they haven't been taking our threats to leave seriously - if they had they would have offered a better deal to Cameron. If we don't leave, they won't change a thing!

 

[eddie1968]

I was a LEAVE voter and started to get undecided over the last fortnight. The last Govt and the Labour Party joined forces in the Better Together Campaign in the Scottish Independence Referendum in 2014 and fought a very negative and fearmongering campaign which I thought was dishonest. I think they are at it again. The reason I want to leave the EU is one of principal as it is an undemocratic union with the Commissioners who are unelected making the real decisions. I have a postal vote, it's filled in with a X next to Leave the EU but I haven't posted it and might not.

 

[Sable_Jan]

Note to add

Mrs Cumbs is voting remain

So that's one in and one out in our household ️

Hokey Cokey anyone

 

[azure]

I believe that those countries outside the EU still use the EHIC without problems and in any case, I would personally always back up travel with private health cover.

I believe the EHIC card is linked to the EEA rather than the EU.

The BBC explains a little here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36461683

"The UK could potentially leave the EU, but remain a member of the EEA, in which case it would keep the existing arrangement.
'Significant uncertainty'
However, for many Brexit campaigners, particularly those concerned about immigration, there is a drawback to that - the EEA demands the free movement of people, goods, services and capital between member states. And that could be a deal breaker."

 

[tim2000s]

Because they import more to us than we export to them?

In terms of the export of goods, the following figures seem to be the most commonly arrived at:

• 44% of the UK's exports go to the EU. Taking the Rotterdam factor out, it becomes 42%.
• 16% of the EU's exports come to the UK.

In terms of Services, you get:

• 7.5% of services exported by the EU are consumed in the UK
• Approximately 38% of services exported by the UK are consumed by the EU

As a result there's a fair bit of imbalance in these numbers. While we consume more of their goods than they of ours, they consume more of our services than we of theirs, which is why there would be a very interesting negotiation that took place.

 

[hankjam]

like I said I don't trust them and as for that failed labour leader Mr Kinnock he is having a right good time at our expense

and he is different from the rest of them, how?

 

[ickihun]

I'm voting to LEAVE.
LEAVE because I need my government to work harder to secure a better deal for the uk.
They have been too comfortable attending and agreeing decisions which have no foresight nor change.
When was the last time the uk benefitted by being a member? If the membership is just a club for patting each other on the back. I want more for my children than just complacency!
This is our chance to make huge change. Change which benefits uk more!
Charity begins at home.
We are neglecting our own needs in case we upset our neighbours. Yes communicate and respect your neighbour but if your looking after their affairs more than your own. It has disaster written all over it.
When the EU membership started. It's intention was mainly for trade. So the uk could trade freely.
With the www. trade would exist regardless. We have outgrown the old fashioned trading face to face. Computers have made that unnecessary. E-mails have replaced letters. Accessibility wasn't there in the 70s.
Most people/organisation is on the www. They don't need permission from the EU membership otherwise how come other companies trade freely without being a member.

 

[Shar67]

I'm in, I grew up in the eighties, it was all about the nuclear arms race, and lots of bad politics.
During the miners strike (I was brought up in a mining village, but dad wasn't a miner), the strike had a huge economic fallout, no money to buy newspapers, no money to go for a few drinks in the pub, so pubs starting closing, news agents closed all the other businesses that are created through mining industry gone.
My friends dads were miners and it was hard, food was sent from Russia and other countries in the then USSR, they saw that we were in the same political mire. That "solidarity" was the beginning of the end of east/west seperation, we brought the wall down. We were glad that places that suffered from the lose of mines had EU support to develop and change. We became a powerful part of the EU, we became part of Europe.
I never thought I would be a home owner in the South East of England, that I would have a son living in German, that friends would open bars or little hotels in Spain, that some of my work colleagues would retire to France. That I would go to the Czech republic for eye surgery.
I live in a multicultural community, that has educated myself, my family and neighbours.
The South East is over populated, rather than stop immigration we need our businesses to spread themselves out throughout the UK to balance numbers.
What we need to remember is we are humans, nationality and all the rest is a coating, strip us bare we are the same, we all bleed the same colour.

 

[tim2000s]

@ickihun, as a mother, you benefitted directly from EU membership as you were able to get full, statutory maternity leave and pay that didn't depend on how long you had worked for a company. Prior to an EU directive that forced the UK to introduce this you had a roughly 50:50 chance of getting it dependent on time worked.

Trade isn't about using the web. It is about moving goods and services across country borders. In the EU where the majority of the single largest proportion of ours go (as detailed earlier) this is free. Out of the EU, our goods get tariffs applied when they get sent abroad, which makes them more expensive so typically fewer are bought.

Please explain what the "better deal for the UK is" that we need? I've heard this phrase many times and I don't understand how we get it by leaving.


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[KateA]

I find it amusing when I hear people saying 'We can take back control'. What have we lost control of?
The tragic thing is that the 'common' man only see immigration writ large, and its mainly from the north, where we have little immigration. The NHS would shut down, restaurants would close, veg wouldn't get picked, where do we draw the line.
I even heard a young lad saying he would vote out despite his apprenticeship being funded by the EU (fgs).
I don't really understand why in a global world we would want to leave, island mentality maybe.
And why would Europe ever deal with us once we left. I've heard that we could open our markets to Asia and America, but we already do business with them. We are not a manufacturing base anymore, so I don't see what we have offer them.
I'm in, I don't want chaos.
Granted the EU needs an overhaul, because it is a behemoth, maybe the scare of us leaving will be the kick up the bum it needs.

Taking control was also something I heard a lot of during the Scottish Independence Referendum, or as we call it the Neverendum. Most of them engaging in politics for the first time, which should be good, but very few of them understood the stark realities. Another phrase bandied about was 'wanting to be free'. I am free, as a Scottish person living in the UK and being part of Europe. The emotive words and phrases however are what the people hear and repeat. It does not help when Rupert Murdoch and his rag trot out the lies and xenophobia.