What is the expected blood sugar reading if a diabetic uses a severe Atkins diet?

[azure]

That's what I'd assumed too @Indy51

@yetta2mymom Can you clarify?

 

[zand]

Well if it is the 'thrifty gene' then lots of us have it, particularly women, it's not rare at all. It means we can survive on very few calories, so dieting/exercising is useless.

 

[yetta2mymom]

The only reference I can find to a "hunter gene" is a theory of autism/ADHD:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_vs._farmer_hypothesis

Possibly the gene is FTO (aka the "fat gene")? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTO_gene

Not knowing the particulars of your autoimmune disease, it makes further speculation difficult.

Hi
I have been unable with a lot of searching to find the weight loss doctor who defined the "hunter" gene on Public Broadcasting U.S.. If you find him tell me. My glucose tolerance test in 1964 was 70,1/2 hr 135,1 hr 170, 2hr 180, extended 3 hr 100. The rise for over 2 hours was his definition of the "hunter" gene. About 1/2 hr later I probably had a very mild low blood sugar episode as I had very mild shaking (I didn't know they called it shaking) as I left the hospital. If I ate a lot of sugar/starch/alcohol I was subject to the usual suspects of low blood sugar so much later that I have no idea of what the time delay was (or exactly what I had ate). This ended as I realized from my glucose tolerance test (but not the consulting doctor, he was stuck in his diabetes rut) that I must be getting low blood sugar and with only a small modification of diet this ended. I did not realize that the debilitating fatigue was due to eating any significant sugar until about 7 years ago. Actually, I suspected that for years, but was talked out of going on my recent diet by the medical establishment (those creeps).

 

[Oldvatr]

Hmmm....if you don't produce insulin then you are a T1 Diabetic and insulin dependant. Or dead.

Perhaps a reference or two to scientific studies?

I think the OP means not triggering an insulin response. So, using Atkins in ketosis mode to stop glucogenesis. The term <<strict>> would imply this.

 

[LittleGreyCat]

I think the OP means not triggering an insulin response. So, using Atkins in ketosis mode to stop glucogenesis. The term <<strict>> would imply this.

Hence my longer post further up.

As far as I know the body is constantly manufacturing a small amount of glucose even on a (very difficult) fat only diet. Cutting out the carbs keeps this at a very low level though, especially once the body is in nutritional ketosis.

 

[yetta2mymom]

I think the OP means not triggering an insulin response. So, using Atkins in ketosis mode to stop glucogenesis. The term <<strict>> would imply this.

Hi

I haven't checked for ketosis but I note that I do not easily lose weight on an Atkins diet (not true for your people). I look at my glucose tolerance test and the fact that people with my type test do not lose weight on many of the standard weight loss diets. Glucose tolerance test taken 1964 70, 1/2 hr 135, 1 hr 170, 2 hr 180, extended 3hr 100, about 1/2 hr later had a very mild shaking episode (low sugar?). I suggest I do not make insulin until my blood sugar rises to an unknown value. Why would I need insulin with my restricted diet? My brain would use enough sugar for the amount I ingest. The diet doctor who found to his surprise, Public Broadcasting U.S. (can not find out his name, I assume not popular so no repeat) that there are people whose glucose tolerance test rises for the full 2 hours scheduled. He called such people as having a "hunter" gene and these people did not lose weight on his diet.
I should have an article about this in Scientific American. I have been studying this extensively. The medical establishment gets me fighting mad. They don't like anyone trying to figure out things for themselves (I am trying to have the 1 doctor who had the confidence and the humility to help me sited in my article). I comment about 1/2 the people in India (from numerous interviews) seem to have my gene and the women have sugar problems in pregnancy. I have speculated that the near east has had many famines due to the monsoon's failure. I guess that the plains American Indians, the people in the near east and the far pacific islanders probably have the gene. They lived as hunters. Many people with the gene (not all) get fat with the western diet and some get diabetes.

 

[yetta2mymom]

Well if it is the 'thrifty gene' then lots of us have it, particularly women, it's not rare at all. It means we can survive on very few calories, so dieting/exercising is useless.

Well if it is the 'thrifty gene' then lots of us have it, particularly women, it's not rare at all. It means we can survive on very few calories, so dieting/exercising is useless.

Hi

The diet doctor who called my glucose tolerance test the "hunter" gene implied this. I have lost weight. The secrete is cut the fat in your diet. I lost about 80 pounds in about 1 year on a crash diet years ago. I ate pasta with cottage cheese and some vegetables for vitamins (not recommended). It took many years for me to regain 60 pounds. I am now losing weight by cutting out most cheese and eating a normal (small in our society) amount of meat (fish you get the idea). Since there is very little sugar/starch in my diet. I am losing for the normal reason (except very recently, my wife says my father said he gained weight when the weather was humid, water?).

 

[yetta2mymom]

Hence my longer post further up.

As far as I know the body is constantly manufacturing a small amount of glucose even on a (very difficult) fat only diet. Cutting out the carbs keeps this at a very low level though, especially once the body is in nutritional ketosis.

Hi

Thanks that explains why my blood sugar has risen very slowly with time since I went on my severe Atkins diet. I still think I am not making insulin.

 

[yetta2mymom]

Well if it is the 'thrifty gene' then lots of us have it, particularly women, it's not rare at all. It means we can survive on very few calories, so dieting/exercising is useless.

Hi

A glucose tolerance test(gtt) is fairly easy to take. The "hunter" gene is a "thrifty gene" in your sense. Ask your doctor. If your gtt shows your blood sugar rising for at least 2 hours congratulations, join the hunter club. If I do not eat enough sugar I also go into a save energy mode (as can most people). Still with a severe Atkins diet my sugar tooth is slowly lessoned and my diet of many protein snakes or low carb vegtables does not feel impossible. Yes, I force myself to exercise. I am lucky I have a home gym with a good recombant exercise bike (hard to be injured). I am old so I now do 3 sessions of 10 minutes each with as much simulated tension as feels at all feasable. I note I have a lot of stick to it (word?).

 

[Lamont D]

Just to discuss a bit further.

My understanding (which may well be wrong) is that a functioning pancreas always produces a small amount of insulin - a sort of background level - throughout the day. Perhaps a bit like the basal insulin that T1s often take.

When blood sugar rises, the insulin production ramps up to match - again perhaps much like T1s take fast acting insulin to match the spikes produced by eating.

T2s in general either don't produce enough insulin, and/or their metabolism is resistant to the insulin So they don't catch the sugar spike before it goes over optimal levels and in more extreme cases the blood glucose level stays dangerously high all the time. So T2s can have continual high concentrations of both insulin and glucose in the blood. The control mechanism isn't working as designed.

In reactive hypoglycemia too much insulin is produced and/or the insulin is produced for too long. This results in a crash in blood glucose after eating because again the control mechanism isn't working as designed.

In the OP's case there seems to be a very long delay before insulin production ramps up, resulting in a long period after eating with high BG before the insulin cycle kicks in. The OP also states the BG "crashes" which implies that BG then goes below normal. This looks like slow motion reactive hypoglycemia. Again the control mechanism not working as designed.

However without constant monitoring of blood insulin levels it is not clear to me if this is the result of delayed production of extra insulin, or a delayed tissue response to the insulin due to insulin resistance which in turn leads to over production of insulin. As far as I can see both lead to much the same result when observed.

Whatever the root cause, it seems that eating something similar to LCHF (such as the Atkins diet) should minimise the spikes due to carbohydrates being converted to glucose.

Also noted that fatigue is one of the symptoms of high blood glucose levels.

I can't at the moment see the benefit to a hunter of running continually high BG levels. Trained muscles have their own built in glucose stores for immediate use, then there are the glycogen stores in other tissues, including the liver, and beyond that fat is available to release more energy if required.

My understanding of the cursive hunter (which is allegedly our origin as hunter/gatherer) is that we evolved to run down prey over an extended period with minimal energy expenditure (much like wolves) which is more efficient over a longer period than the bursts of energy used by prey to escape an immediate threat. After a kill the cursive hunter either brings the meat home to the family to gorge on or (perhaps and) gorges on the prey to replenish energy stores and build up fat reserves as a future energy store. We don't carry that much direct energy (glucose) in our blood and our other tissues and fat is the storage mechanism for medium and long term energy use. So, as I said, I don't see any evolutionary advantage to running a consistently high BG level. For context, a reasonably trained non-diabetic runner can run about 20 miles on immediate energy stores.

So, as I said before, some kind of scientific reference would be very useful at this point.

I think you have it!
I'm sure I said more or less the same thing!

I think the op reads into the 'hunter gene' theory too much.
I also believe that if he had random food allergy tests with a CGM, he would discover so much more, how his reaction to food and how his metabolism actually works.
Testing for how much insulin is produced and when he goes low into hypo.

If I was concerned and asking questions, that's what I would invest in!

 

[yetta2mymom]

Hi

You have explained possibly what went wrong when I had a probable autoimmune response in 1957 (except for thurst, think type 1 diabetes). I now get severe fatigue whenever I process sugar and if I eat too much sugar/starch/alchol I can get major low blood sugar many hours later. So much later that I have no idea that food was the problem. My blood sugar, the few times (2 or maybe 3) I took it, was 60 when I felt very tired. I still insist that with my "hunter" gene I have no problem if I eat very little sugar/starch since until my blood sugar rises I have very little or no insulin. In fact judging from the fact that a boy with type 1 diabetes has gone 2 years without insulin with no obvious ill effects no insulin is a possibility. My gene seems to be wonderful for hunters. I appaud the doctor who named it. I point out that I do not naturally lose weight with my diet. I have had spells were I have gained weight as well as times I have lost weight. I am working on losing weight at the present time by cutting out all cheese in my diet (protein with some fat portions are small for this society). I was successful until very recently. My wife says my father (similar to me in weight etc...almost surely the one with the gene) said that he gained weight in humid weather. Time will tell if this new weight (say 2 or more pounds) is simply water. I also suspect I have corrected my blood pressure problem. I am slowly cutting my meds which controlled my blood pressure (have some worry about rebound). I suspect excess insulin was the culpret.

 

[Lamont D]

Hi

You have explained possibly what went wrong when I had a probable autoimmune response in 1957 (except for thurst, think type 1 diabetes). I now get severe fatigue whenever I process sugar and if I eat too much sugar/starch/alchol I can get major low blood sugar many hours later. So much later that I have no idea that food was the problem. My blood sugar, the few times (2 or maybe 3) I took it, was 60 when I felt very tired. I still insist that with my "hunter" gene I have no problem if I eat very little sugar/starch since until my blood sugar rises I have very little or no insulin. In fact judging from the fact that a boy with type 1 diabetes has gone 2 years without insulin with no obvious ill effects no insulin is a possibility. My gene seems to be wonderful for hunters. I appaud the doctor who named it. I point out that I do not naturally lose weight with my diet. I have had spells were I have gained weight as well as times I have lost weight. I am working on losing weight at the present time by cutting out all cheese in my diet (protein with some fat portions are small for this society). I was successful until very recently. My wife says my father (similar to me in weight etc...almost surely the one with the gene) said that he gained weight in humid weather. Time will tell if this new weight (say 2 or more pounds) is simply water. I also suspect I have corrected my blood pressure problem. I am slowly cutting my meds which controlled my blood pressure (have some worry about rebound). I suspect excess insulin was the culpret.

Once again, if you take out the fact that you believe the 'hunter gene' description, you are actually saying you have (very) late reactive hypoglycaemia!

You say you get response of low blood sugar after processing sugar, starch, alcohol.
So do I!
The reason I don't hypo no more and get the reaction from the sugar, starch, alcohol is I don't eat it!
If those groups of foods are bad for you, why do you persistently eat them?
There is no real need to. Cutting cheese and good fats out of your diet is not necessary, don't eat the carbs, sugars, starch, alcohol!

As I've said before, if you go very low carb, then your fatigue will go away, my energy levels are unbelievable. I have never been healthier!.
Our sort of condition is not age related, it is all to do with what we eat!

Being in control and in ketosis is the only way, that really works.
And you will probably lose some weight as well!

 

[yetta2mymom]

Once again, if you take out the fact that you believe the 'hunter gene' description, you are actually saying you have (very) late reactive hypoglycaemia!

You say you get response of low blood sugar after processing sugar, starch, alcohol.
So do I!
The reason I don't hypo no more and get the reaction from the sugar, starch, alcohol is I don't eat it!
If those groups of foods are bad for you, why do you persistently eat them?
There is no real need to. Cutting cheese and good fats out of your diet is not necessary, don't eat the carbs, sugars, starch, alcohol!

As I've said before, if you go very low carb, then your fatigue will go away, my energy levels are unbelievable. I have never been healthier!.
Our sort of condition is not age related, it is all to do with what we eat!

Being in control and in ketosis is the only way, that really works.
And you will probably lose some weight as well!

Hi
I am 77 years old and think that explains a lot. I disagree with you since it is obvious that I do not necessarily lose weight with a sever Atkins diet. The weight loss doctor who defined the "hunter" gene said these people do not lose weight on my weight loss diet. I cut the cheese to lose weight, not for my health. I agree that we probably have a variance of the same problem. My best guess is that my autoimmune problem destroyed one type of cell in my adrenal glands. I assume my adrenal glands use chemistry (probably complicated) to stop the production of insulin until my blood sugar rises. When the cells were destroyed this chemistry was compromised. Another reason for my guess is that about 1/2 (or more) of the women in the near east have our gene. You should have seen the Indian who vigorously said (don't remember exact words) that we have prediabetes but don't get diabetes (prediabetes is defined as high blood sugar after 2 hours during a glucose tolerance test). He also said that during pregnancy his wife had terrible high blood sugar after eating one type of grain (not clear if bread or what) but no problem with a similar but different grain (note: many famines due to failure of monsoons if you don't lose weight easily you are more likely to survive famines). I have inquired and all the Indians I have encountered talk about the sugar problems of their women during pregnancy. I have a relative who can vouch for those problems she was told by a (stupid?) doctor that she was sure to get diabetes over 30 (or is it 40) years ago when they took a glucose tolerance test after pregnancy. She has our problem and can't keep a job (falls asleep) or do highway driving. Like another women I found with an ad in the New York Times they would rather have the fatigue than go on a strict diet. I also have found out that many people in the near east end up fat and get diabetes when they switch to the western diet. The same can be said of plains American Indians or Pacific Islanders (note: hunters).

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

Hi
I have good reason to believe that I have simulated what a diabetic would get if they used a severe Atkins diet for app 7 years. Over that time my blood sugar had a very slight upwards bias. My most recent readings are 99 fasting and 5.8 A1C. Is this what you would expect?

As you ask, I would personally be disappointed with a 5.8 A1C despite a severe Atkins diet if I were non-diabetic.

 

[Indy51]

I'm at a loss really. It seems that the OP's fixation on this hunter gene thing blinds him to all other possibilities.

Maybe this article by Jenny Ruhl about how gluocose tolerance is lost may help in some way. Certainly seems he is quite far down the path - little or no first phase response and increasingly poor second phase. Personally I'd be seeing an endocrinologist. Maybe there is beta cell damage from the autoimmune attack? Maybe it's time for insulin if an Atkins style diet is no longer working as well as it used to?

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/14046621.php

 

[yetta2mymom]

I'm at a loss really. It seems that the OP's fixation on this hunter gene thing blinds him to all other possibilities.

Maybe this article by Jenny Ruhl about how gluocose tolerance is lost may help in some way. Certainly seems he is quite far down the path - little or no first phase response and increasingly poor second phase. Personally I'd be seeing an endocrinologist. Maybe there is beta cell damage from the autoimmune attack? Maybe it's time for insulin if an Atkins style diet is no longer working as well as it used to?

Hi

People with the "hunter" gene also get diabetes. In fact some populations who probably have the gene get fat and get diabetes in large numbers when they try the western style diet. However; I do not see how the Atkins diet would not work even if you contact diabetes. This site reported that a boy with type 1 diabetes has controlled his diabetes for 2 years without insulin just with the paliantopic (can't spell) diet. I think there may be a completely different problem.
I have seen probably the world expert on Adrenal problems. I have taken all the standard tests. I have run my conclusions thru my local expert and the people who run this blog. The answers I get (paraphrase) is possible, even probable but not proved. My conclusions are supposed to be presented in the Scientific American. I am with you, the publisher for Scientific American could be lying and also the original saleswomen I contacted for the Scientific American could also be lying. I will believe it will be published when I see it in print. If you want I will post my latest version of my Scientific American article. yettamymom.

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/14046621.php

 

[Indy51]

@yetta2mymom - diabetes has not been pinned down to one single gene. The latest science on epigenetics seems to indicate a much higher degree of complexity than simply one gene = one condition. Genes can be switched on or off by environmental factors, diet, etc. I recently had my DNA sequenced and the report came back with 20 different SNP's indicating risk of Type 2, but I still don't think it was inevitable that I would go on to get it. I also have really high risk factors for HLA-B27 syndromes (like psoriasis) but (touch wood) haven't developed signs of any of them yet. My mother on the other hand was a life-long severe psoriasis sufferer. Who knows why she got it but I haven't so far?

 

[Indy51]

@yetta2mymom

An addendum after seeing the post by @tpaz on another topic: http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/autoimmune-musings.104873/#post-1212842

The boy you talk about who went without insulin for two years was probably in the 'honeymoon' phase and still producing endogenous insulin. The time it takes for this 'honeymoon' to be over varies enormously depending on the strength of the autoimmune attack.

 

[LittleGreyCat]

With the greatest respect, it would be useful if the OP just posted additional information instead of the same stuff filling about 80% of the response.

Anyway, as suggested the "hunter" gene is probably not that at all, but the "thrifty" gene.

I could also point out that most of the tribes/races in the Northern Hemisphere are hunters - more so than those in warmer climates because of the lack of vegetables over the winter. In tropical and sub tropical climates food is likely to be available all the year round. Once you get far enough North for snow to cover the ground for 5 months of the year life becomes much harsher.

For an extreme case the Inuit traditionally survive on almost exclusively fish and meat because they live too far North to have access to vegetables. They also had (before modern society changed them) an enormous amount of fat in their diet.

For the "thrifty" gene, which many people have, the ability to store fat easily and maintain weight on a restricted diet doesn't automatically mean an increased risk of diabetes.

The crucial thing is where the fat is stored.

If the fat is stored mainly about the belly (as shown by a large waist measurement compared to height) then this visceral fat is known to increase the risk of developing T2 Diabetes.

However there are those who keep a trim waist but deposit the fat mainly around the thighs (often European tribes). Some African tribes tend to store fat in the buttocks. In both these cases there would logically be decreased risk. However genetic risk is highest in Asians, next highest in Black Africans, then come the rest of the world.

Also note that (these figures may be slightly out of date) 80% of T2s are over weight or obese on diagnosis but 80% of over weight or obese people don't develop T2.

The concept that the body evolved to survive famine and feast is a very enticing one, and at the moment I am much in favour of it. If the body evolves to spend part of the year storing fat and part of the year in ketosis re-using that fat then evolution may not have encountered long periods of continual plenty. Even then, continual plenty is unlikely to thin out the population before prime breeding age. Continual starvation is much more likely to have a selective effect. Prime breeding age is immediately after sexual maturity; say around 14 years old. Traditionally, T2 didn't develop until the late 50s so in evolutionary terms this would be long after breeding so adverse genes which express at this point are unlikely to be culled from the genome due to natural selection.

Anyway, enough rambling.

Final puzzle; when does Reactive Hypoglycemia become T2 Diabetes? Is there a cross over? If you have high BG for, say, 4 hours before you crash into a hypo then you seem to have two problems: firstly you spend most of the day with elevated BG but eventually you crash into hypo territory. I would thing the long term elevated BG would most likely classify you as T2 (as the most serious condition) with an added complication of RG.

 

[SunnyExpat]

As you ask, I would personally be disappointed with a 5.8 A1C despite a severe Atkins diet if I were non-diabetic.

Below 6 is normal, why would you be disappointed with a normal response?
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/what-is-hba1c.html