Prof Roy Taylor's work on reversing type 2 diabetes

[ickihun]

Weight loss is my main aim but less insulin usage won't be rebuffed.
I just cannot do ND without an appetite suppressant stronger than metformin and a drug I don't have horrendeous side affects from.
I'd always encourage all avenues before surgery!

 

[serenity648]

I haven't received mine yet but prof taylor's work is based on how the body reacts to bariatric surgery benefits of reversal. Bariatric surgery can reverse type2s not suffering(well diagnosed) for longer than 10yrs.
You're restricted by a egg size stomach to low amounts of food. Fatty food gives dumping syndrome so your body doesn't need a high fat diet. LCHF didn't work for me but low car, low fat does. I've lost 2 and half stones so far but it's painfully slow due to underactive thyroid too and using insulin therapy.
Low calorie it will be. ND is 600cals so I assume bariatric surgery patients limited to such in their ice cube size portions. High calorie foods are discouraged.

so you will have to have that sort of limited amount for the rest of your life?

 

[Tannith]

I don't think I am brave enough to do the full ND, so I am just going to do the best I can and try to stick to 900-1000 cals a day for 8 weeks. I expect, since I am eating more cals than he recommends, I shall have to do it for longer to get the same effect. I have no doubt it will work for me as long as I stick to it for long enough to lose the pancreatic fat in which my pancreatic cells are drowning (poor things!). As to maintaining the reversal I don't think you can blame any diet for what happens after you finish doing it. Its up to the individual to ensure they don't go back to their former bad habits.

 

[Fleegle]

I don't think I am brave enough to do the full ND, so I am just going to do the best I can and try to stick to 900-1000 cals a day for 8 weeks. I expect, since I am eating more cals than he recommends, I shall have to do it for longer to get the same effect. I have no doubt it will work for me as long as I stick to it for long enough to lose the pancreatic fat in which my pancreatic cells are drowning (poor things!). As to maintaining the reversal I don't think you can blame any diet for what happens after you finish doing it. Its up to the individual to ensure they don't go back to their former bad habits.

Completely agree - the same s true for LCHF - it is a way of life not a diet to try for 8 weeks so the ND diet is the same IMHO.

On your journey a couple of things to consider I think, look at the recipes on the site. It is interesting that the diet - even food rather than shakes calls for no fish, no meat, no dairy, no alcohol. Interesting and perhaps important to the way the body deals with protein I think. Also low carb isn't the mantra - the shakes are near 30g each I think so if you do try it yourself on 1000 for longer then don't try and do LC in a VLCD way as I think that might give you problems.

Here speaks someone who has never even tried it - but I wanted to just impart that which I have read which might or might not be important.

 

[ringi]

As to maintaining the reversal I don't think you can blame any diet for what happens after you finish doing it. Its up to the individual to ensure they don't go back to their former bad habits.

The NHS needs to look at the long term cost effectiveness of what it does, as the level of support needed for the ND costs more than a few months of drugs, the NHS needs to prove if ND saves drug costs over the long term.

 

[ringi]

If I was to try the ND I would do it as low carb, based on homemade bone broth and green veg. However a few 14 day long fasts just with bone broth may work as well. The key seems to be the weight lose.

 

[Mbaker]

I do worry when obese people are encouraged to do anything other than slow stagnated exercise strategies to get their weight in line.
Walking will always be the very best first point of call.
Your body tells you how much is beneficial, step by step.

Not join a gym and run on treadmill like billiow! Very dangerous.
I know for sure @Mbaker didn't do extreme exercise to start. Build-up has been timely but I just worry where it will end since reversal is very rare but sustained, even rarer!
I'm keeping my fingers crossed and huge best wishes.
A few are lucky.

A mimicked bariatric surgery affect can be very very useful to diabetics less than 10yrs managed. No extra exercise is involved I believe.

I didn't start with extreme training as I am lucky enough to have a wife who has been a personal trainer, has degrees in Sports Science and Physiotherapy with her own rehab centre, so my own HCP. We wanted to protect my heart and gradually re-introduce my body to intense workouts.

I am privileged that my wife accepted what see had learned on her 2 degrees about nutrition was generally wrong (it was Professor Tim Noakes' new position on carbohydrates that made her a LCHF advocate as his initial teachings regarding carbs was a backbone on both of her degrees).

If I am unlucky and can't workout as much, or at all, I hopefully would be ok, as my wife has 3 clients who are long term wheel chair bound Physio patients, 2 of these have recently started her weight loss (LCHF) program and have still lost weight. I would still have a concern as according to my Tanita scales 71 kgs of my 90 is muscle mass. I know that the muscle helps with the GLUT4 non insulin take up of glucose, which I would not want compromised. My goal is to get down to around 10% body fat, currently circa 13.5 - 15% (depending on scales) and reduce my food intake.

 

[ickihun]

I didn't start with extreme training as I am lucky enough to have a wife who has been a personal trainer, has degrees in Sports Science and Physiotherapy with her own rehab centre, so my own HCP. We wanted to protect my heart and gradually re-introduce my body to intense workouts.

I am privileged that my wife accepted what see had learned on her 2 degrees about nutrition was generally wrong (it was Professor Tim Noakes' new position on carbohydrates that made her a LCHF advocate as his initial teachings regarding carbs was a backbone on both of her degrees).

If I am unlucky and can't workout as much, or at all, I hopefully would be ok, as my wife has 3 clients who are long term wheel chair bound Physio patients, 2 of these have recently started her weight loss (LCHF) program and have still lost weight. I would still have a concern as according to my Tanita scales 71 kgs of my 90 is muscle mass. I know that the muscle helps with the GLUT4 non insulin take up of glucose, which I would not want compromised. My goal is to get down to around 10% body fat, currently circa 13.5 - 15% (depending on scales) and reduce my food intake.

I definitely need my own too!
The answer is for us all to be trained as athletes on diagnosis.
Can you imagine the amount of gold and silver Olympic medals?

As I've always said it's when that all stops that's where the problems start. Keep in the knowledge and don't take anything for granted. Most importantly, shine!

 

[Tannith]

Completely agree - the same s true for LCHF - it is a way of life not a diet to try for 8 weeks so the ND diet is the same IMHO.

On your journey a couple of things to consider I think, look at the recipes on the site. It is interesting that the diet - even food rather than shakes calls for no fish, no meat, no dairy, no alcohol. Interesting and perhaps important to the way the body deals with protein I think. Also low carb isn't the mantra - the shakes are near 30g each I think so if you do try it yourself on 1000 for longer then don't try and do LC in a VLCD way as I think that might give you problems.

Here speaks someone who has never even tried it - but I wanted to just impart that which I have read which might or might not be important.

 

[Tannith]

"On your journey a couple of things to consider I think, look at the recipes on the site. It is interesting that the diet - even food rather than shakes calls for no fish, no meat, no dairy, no alcohol. Interesting and perhaps important to the way the body deals with protein I think" Thank you Fleegle.
Please can you Fleegle, or anyone tell me where to find Prof Taylor's recipes for doing it with food. Especially interested in why (and Where)he says no meat,fish or dairy.

 

[DCUKMod]

"On your journey a couple of things to consider I think, look at the recipes on the site. It is interesting that the diet - even food rather than shakes calls for no fish, no meat, no dairy, no alcohol. Interesting and perhaps important to the way the body deals with protein I think" Thank you Fleegle.
Please can you Fleegle, or anyone tell me where to find Prof Taylor's recipes for doing it with food. Especially interested in why (and Where)he says no meat,fish or dairy.

I don't believe Professor Taylor has gone into recipes of any sort. He wrote the foreword of Michael Moseley's book, "The 8 Week Blood Sugar Diet", so he must be pretty comfortable with the food in there. The 8WBSD is like a ND with food.

People on here have used it with success too.

 

[Daibell]

I hope they give Roy Taylor a knighthood. He deserves it after all he has done for T2s and saving the NHS all this money for treatment

I still question whether just a low-carb diet would achieve similar results to the ND diet. I would like to see more reported data comparing the ND calorie restricted diet with an LC diet with the same level of carbs.

 

[bulkbiker]

I still question whether just a low-carb diet would achieve similar results to the ND diet. I would like to see more reported data comparing the ND calorie restricted diet with an LC diet with the same level of carbs.

I was thinking of trying an 800 cal per day LCHF diet for a couple of weeks to see the effects on my bloods. Will prob give it a go next week. Just coming up with the food list now.

 

[Pipp]

I still question whether just a low-carb diet would achieve similar results to the ND diet. I would like to see more reported data comparing the ND calorie restricted diet with an LC diet with the same level of carbs.

When you mention the same level of carbs do you mean carbs less than 160g as in your signature @Daibell ?
One of the meal replacement diets I am aware of has 50g of carbs total in the daily meal replacements, (assuming 4 of the products used per day). Even with the addition of a portion of green veg added that would still be under 150 g carbs. So low carb ND is possible.

 

[Fleegle]

I don't believe Professor Taylor has gone into recipes of any sort. He wrote the foreword of Michael Moseley's book, "The 8 Week Blood Sugar Diet", so he must be pretty comfortable with the food in there. The 8WBSD is like a ND with food.

People on here have used it with success too.

No I am not talking about the book. If you go to the Newcastle university web site and look at the research, under public information there is a tab for diet. If you go in there they give you a set of ideas of what you can and cannot eat on the diet. They are very specific about the things I listed and they also talk about making soups and have recipes for it.

I check again after your post to make sure I am not going mad and I am not - at least I don't think so...

 

[ringi]

It would be very hard to hit the 200 cal limit for "added food" if you used any meat or fish etc, veg gives you a lot more for the cals......

 

[Fleegle]

"On your journey a couple of things to consider I think, look at the recipes on the site. It is interesting that the diet - even food rather than shakes calls for no fish, no meat, no dairy, no alcohol. Interesting and perhaps important to the way the body deals with protein I think" Thank you Fleegle.
Please can you Fleegle, or anyone tell me where to find Prof Taylor's recipes for doing it with food. Especially interested in why (and Where)he says no meat,fish or dairy.

Yes sure.
Go here to see the public information part of the NC diet.
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal/#publicinformation

Then click on "sample recipe..."
Or you can click directly on this - but I didn't want you to think it was unconnected to the university website.
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/newcastlemagneticresonancecentre/files/sample-recipes.pdf

It specifically states under "during the 8 weeks of the diet...." and you will find meat fish and poultry top of that list.

I think there are many variants and I have no opinion on any of those, but if you ate trying the Newcastle diet - as opposed to the blood sugar diet of the fleegle own brand diet - it isn't the Newcastle diet. May well have exactly the same results.

 

[Fleegle]

It would be very hard to hit the 200 cal limit for "added food" if you used any meat or fish etc, veg gives you a lot more for the cals......

I agree. But it is possible. Some might think rather than veg I will have a meat broth - but that isn't the ND - it is something different.

 

[Fleegle]

I don't believe Professor Taylor has gone into recipes of any sort. He wrote the foreword of Michael Moseley's book, "The 8 Week Blood Sugar Diet", so he must be pretty comfortable with the food in there. The 8WBSD is like a ND with food.

People on here have used it with success too.

He may well be comfortable about the book - that isn't the ND diet - that is something similar.
In the links I posted above you can read for yourself what the University considered to be ok - and not ok on the Newcastle study.

My post was supposed to help the poster as they wanted to follow the ND and for all I know, because I am no expert at all on any of this - the no fish meat poultry, dairy root veg etc etc might be critical to following the ND.

 

[Pipp]

He may well be comfortable about the book - that isn't the ND diet - that is something similar.
In the links I posted above you can read for yourself what the University considered to be ok - and not ok on the Newcastle study.

My post was supposed to help the poster as they wanted to follow the ND and for all I know, because I am no expert at all on any of this - the no fish meat poultry, dairy root veg etc etc might be critical to following the ND.

Hi @Fleegle
I can understand where the confusion came from. Unless I am confused, too, which is possible.

As you say, the original Newcastle study, for which you have provided the recipe links, did stipulate meal replacement drinks, and rigid rules on what could and could not be consumed. That was because it was a controled experiment.

More recently, Prof Taylor et al have relaxed the rules somewhat and endorsed the Micahel Moseley method as described in the 8 weekBlood Sugar Diet. Some see ND and Blood Sugar Diet as interchangeable. It seems for some, either method will work.