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Prof Roy Taylor's work on reversing type 2 diabetes

Fleegle said:
Just my opinion not based on experience.
I have read a great deal of material and I wonder how significant the shakes might be in this. There is evidence that food in the first digestive tract sets of the wrong type of Insulin response - so perhaps the faster you pass through that the better - and liquid might pass through quickly.

Then there is the significance of the 8 weeks and the type of food which means the body ha to scavenge fat from the pancreas - again could the wrong types of food which may well be more sustaining, trigger the wrong response?

Having dropped in excess of 15% weight now, and knowing this is about fat threshold, I can tell you my intolerance for carbs seems to be going up not down and so the ND is my only next choice....
Wish the December data was around now....
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I'll let you know after bariatric surgery where the first intestine is removed. Endocrologist seems to think I'll still need some basal insulin and metformin will cover 1st and 2nd response.
Where have you read that first tract determines 1st response insulin need? Unless it means mouth and gut?
 
bulkbiker said:
Exactly @Pipp and there I think is where the problems will come. Long term calorie restriction is not only hard but often self defeating as metabolisms slow as well. I think a feasting/fasting regime would work better but it seems Prof Taylor is still of the CICO frame of mind.
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So the real trick is to work out how to keep the metabolic rate high even when dieting. Or speed it back after.
There are ways of not putting it back on, but not easy - building more muscle is a good one as it takes twice as many calories as fat.

Not doubting it isn't a difficult thing though, Many examples of people who have done it as well as those who have not.
 
Fleegle said:
So the real trick is to work out how to keep the metabolic rate high even when dieting. Or speed it back after.
There are ways of not putting it back on, but not easy - building more muscle is a good one as it takes twice as many calories as fat.

Not doubting it isn't a difficult thing though, Many examples of people who have done it as well as those who have not.
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Fasting rather than calorie restriction has been shown to raise metabolic rate.. that's why I would look at feasting and fasting (both intermittent and maybe extended) but as always each to their own.
 
bulkbiker said:
Fasting rather than calorie restriction has been shown to raise metabolic rate.. that's why I would look at feasting and fasting (both intermittent and maybe extended) but as always each to their own.
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You are completely right @bulkbiker, I have read enough of the posts to know that intermittent fasting is a much better solution to losing some weight and not slowing the old metabolism down. I am certainly not disagreeing with you nor your point. Indeed I think I have followed links on your posts to Dr J on this. And I bought his book on fasting to boot.

But - it is the unanswerable question of whether you need to cut that calorie intake for that period of time to really scrub the fat out from the pancreas. That is what is on my mind. So a solution which means I don't slow my metabolic rate down - but do go VLC for 8 weeks is what I am looking for. Impossible - maybe.
 
I'm currently trying to keep to an 800 calorie low carb
Fleegle said:
You are completely right @bulkbiker, I have read enough of the posts to know that intermittent fasting is a much better solution to losing some weight and not slowing the old metabolism down. I am certainly not disagreeing with you nor your point. Indeed I think I have followed links on your posts to Dr J on this. And I bought his book on fasting to boot.

But - it is the unanswerable question of whether you need to cut that calorie intake for that period of time to really scrub the fat out from the pancreas. That is what is on my mind. So a solution which means I don't slow my metabolic rate down - but do go VLC for 8 weeks is what I am looking for. Impossible - maybe.
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No, not impossible - at least I don't think it is. How about combining it all; 24 hour fasting (dinner to dinner) then eat a 700 to 800 calorie very low carb meal (or, if you really want to use the shakes then drink three of them for dinner plus some 200 cals of veg).

I think that this would work - although I'm not sure about drinking 3 x shakes all in one go. :dead:
 
Chook said:
I'm currently trying to keep to an 800 calorie low carb


No, not impossible - at least I don't think it is. How about combining it all; 24 hour fasting (dinner to dinner) then eat a 700 to 800 calorie very low carb meal (or, if you really want to use the shakes then drink three of them for dinner plus some 200 cals of veg).

I think that this would work - although I'm not sure about drinking 3 x shakes all in one go. :dead:
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Now that is an exceptionally good idea.
 
Chook said:
I'm currently trying to keep to an 800 calorie low carb


No, not impossible - at least I don't think it is. How about combining it all; 24 hour fasting (dinner to dinner) then eat a 700 to 800 calorie very low carb meal (or, if you really want to use the shakes then drink three of them for dinner plus some 200 cals of veg).

I think that this would work - although I'm not sure about drinking 3 x shakes all in one go. :dead:
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That's kind of what I'm looking at.. although I may have a coffee with cream a couple of times a day and then have one meal.. at the moment that's looking like eggs and cheese rather than the steak I would prefer!
 
Indy51 said:
There is already an eating regime known as OMAD or "One Meal A Day" - and another similar called "The Warrior's Diet".

Here's a video about OMAD:


Tom Naughton has recently written a series of posts about CICO, weight loss, etc. Well worth reading - he always has an amusing way of explaining things:

http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/2017/08/10/the-calorie-debate-again-and-again-and-again/
http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/2017/08/14/calories-again-and-again/
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The only issue I am finding with this is that I am not able to fit in all the foods I would like. If I have my family LCHF meal followed by berries, nuts, full fat yogurt, flax and other seeds, followed by half a grapefruit (which I have re-introduced (I have found I can tolerate this and an orange. If you are on metformin do not test grapefruit)) I am too stuffed. This sounds like a nice problem to have, but as I am watching my nutrients this has been a real problem for me. It looks like I will do 2 to 3 OMAD followed by 2 meals a day for the rest of the week as a compromise. It is however LCHF which has provided this flexibility; yesterday I was able to do a fasted Fight Klub group gym session, followed by a combined Karate and weights session, with no hunger or energy issues, I then had a jacuzzi and had to tell myself no more workouts as this would be over the top - LCHF is amazing.
 
Fleegle said:
I have lost over 15% of my weight and I am moving ever closer to a decent BMI and W/H measure.
According to my scales my overall body fat is still too high - so work to do although my visceral fat is good and I have just moved into the normal range for it. Of course these scales are good - but not the kind that a health centre might have.

Though my BG is much much better controlled - I am far from pushing it back. I am still just controlling it through diet.

So the 15% is a guide I am sure - indeed I am almost certainly going to try the ND in September because my 15% weight loss has been helpful but nowhere near where I want to get to.
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Very interesting @Fleegle I have lost 25% of my body weight but am also still just controlling- and still have considerable weight on my torso. LCHF is still helping me to lose weight consistently but I'm following all these discussions with interest in case I need to give things a helping hand at some point.
 
Goonergal said:
Very interesting @Fleegle I have lost 25% of my body weight but am also still just controlling- and still have considerable weight on my torso. LCHF is still helping me to lose weight consistently but I'm following all these discussions with interest in case I need to give things a helping hand at some point.
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Chook said:
I'm currently trying to keep to an 800 calorie low carb


No, not impossible - at least I don't think it is. How about combining it all; 24 hour fasting (dinner to dinner) then eat a 700 to 800 calorie very low carb meal (or, if you really want to use the shakes then drink three of them for dinner plus some 200 cals of veg).

I think that this would work - although I'm not sure about drinking 3 x shakes all in one go. :dead:
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Some of the fasting diets I have read call 6-800 cals per day "fasting". They have that on "fasting" days and "eat normally" on other days.
 
Tannith said:
Some of the fasting diets I have read call 6-800 cals per day "fasting". They have that on "fasting" days and "eat normally" on other days.
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Yes, I agree that they do. Its just that on this thread the conversation was about how it would be possible to combine the ND diet, fasting AND a very low carb way of eating. The original ND diet was 800 calories per day (3 x 200 cal drinks plus 200 cals of above ground veg) and ran for 8 weeks.


Goonergal said:
Very interesting @Fleegle I have lost 25% of my body weight but am also still just controlling- and still have considerable weight on my torso. LCHF is still helping me to lose weight consistently but I'm following all these discussions with interest in case I need to give things a helping hand at some point.
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Have you!!!! Thats WONDERFUL - very well done!!! I'll have to get myself down to Nando's. ;)
 
Mbaker said:
The only issue I am finding with this is that I am not able to fit in all the foods I would like. If I have my family LCHF meal followed by berries, nuts, full fat yogurt, flax and other seeds, followed by half a grapefruit (which I have re-introduced (I have found I can tolerate this and an orange. If you are on metformin do not test grapefruit)) I am too stuffed. This sounds like a nice problem to have, but as I am watching my nutrients this has been a real problem for me. It looks like I will do 2 to 3 OMAD followed by 2 meals a day for the rest of the week as a compromise. It is however LCHF which has provided this flexibility; yesterday I was able to do a fasted Fight Klub group gym session, followed by a combined Karate and weights session, with no hunger or energy issues, I then had a jacuzzi and had to tell myself no more workouts as this would be over the top - LCHF is amazing.
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I agree. I think if you are dieting for a long time whether on ND or fasting or both you do need to pay attention to nutrition and ensure you get everything you need. Short term its less important because as Prof Taylor says " bodies are tough".
 
Chook said:
Have you!!!! Thats WONDERFUL - very well done!!! I'll have to get myself down to Nando's. ;)
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Thanks @Chook

Nando's is such a discovery!! Actually the big breakthrough came on my holiday, where I ended up discovering that I could easily skip dinner and lunch - started with me feeling ill and not eating for 24 hours and then just continued as in the heat and with the distraction of holiday activities wasn't so hungry - lost 10 pounds in 3 weeks and really sped up the weight loss.
 
serenity648 said:
can I just ask: after bariatric surgery, is there a calorie limit you have to stick to? The subject has been gently mooted by my GP.
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I have discussed this topic with bariatric surgeons. Yes there is still a calorie limit, but certainly not as little as 600 kcals. Certainly under the usual amount you used to eat, and perhaps even less than a person of your size without surgery. Now, you also have to take care of certain foods, because the body's digestive capacity is restricted. Surgeons see patients coming back because they went out of dietary restrictions.

IMO, better to try something non-permanent. New castle diet, and exercise. If that does not work, then surgery.
 
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Chook said:
I'm currently trying to keep to an 800 calorie low carb


No, not impossible - at least I don't think it is. How about combining it all; 24 hour fasting (dinner to dinner) then eat a 700 to 800 calorie very low carb meal (or, if you really want to use the shakes then drink three of them for dinner plus some 200 cals of veg).

I think that this would work - although I'm not sure about drinking 3 x shakes all in one go. :dead:
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But we already all fast all night every night, whether we are on the ND or not.
 
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