More Support, less Advice for Newbies

[NoCrbs4Me]

I disagree. I think it is a well balanced over view, which opens up the concepts of self testing and experimenting with carb levels in a gentle way. Especially as many people have come straight from their GP's or other HCP having been told to eat lots of carbs and not to test.

But there's no discussion of the risks of reducing carbs while on insulin or insulin affecting meds.

 

[Boo1979]

But there's no discussion of the risks of reducing carbs while on insulin or insulin affecting meds.

It does link to
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/Diabetes-and-Carbohydrate-diets.html
Which at least covers different approaches to reducing carbs rather than ultra low / ketogenic

 

[Boo1979]

It does link to
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/Diabetes-and-Carbohydrate-diets.html
Which at least covers different approaches to reducing carbs rather than ultra low / ketogenic

And highlights some of the different considerations for T1 diabetics

 

[Bluetit1802]

I strongly believe that newly diagnosed don't need the advice to fast for 24 hours! I was already extremely upset and heading towards depression and I think that would have tipped me over the edge!

I could not agree more! I am 4 years down the line and would never consider a 24 hour fast. It was bad enough knowing I ought to give up bread. It isn't necessary, but that is just my opinion. To me, it is something to consider once more knowledge is in place, and if indeed it is necessary in individual circumstances.

 

[Grateful]

It's a fine line.

I agree very much with @equipoise that the initial post-diagnosis "fear and shock" is a good time for some people to consider their options, inform themselves and make the decisions that need to be made. It worked very well for me: I'm terrible at getting stuff done. I basically have to be in "crisis mode" or "on deadline" or I get nothing done!

However, it became clear to me as I began posting on this forum that for some people, this can be the wrong time to be "blunt." As one person told me, some people confronted by that approach suffer from information overload and shut down completely. I did not appreciate this at all, when I first joined the forum.

My main "adaptation" since then has been to tell my own story, explain where I personally got my advice, and let people make up their own minds. I find it hard to see what could be objectionable about that approach.

This is an Internet forum. It is different from most such fora because it discusses life-and-death issues, but ultimately we are each responsible not only for what we post, but for how we evaluate the information provided by perfect strangers.

I thank @lucylocket61 for starting this thread because it does go to the heart of the matter. It is healthy to thrash out these disagreements in a civil way. This forum would not be what it is, without vigorous debate.

 

[lucylocket61]

But there's no discussion of the risks of reducing carbs while on insulin or insulin affecting meds.

from Daisy1's post: "The info below is primarily aimed at people with type 2 diabetes, however, it may also be of benefit for other types of diabetes as well."

and: "To be able to see what effect a particular type of food or meal has on your blood sugar is to do a test before the meal and then test after the meal. A test 2 hours after the meal gives a good idea of how your body has reacted to the meal."

so someone on insulin or insulin affected meds would see the effect and be able to take the appropriate action.

and: "A large number of people on this forum have chosen to reduce " not cut out, not avoid, not fast for x number of hours, but just reduce and test to find their reaction.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

And highlights some of the different considerations for T1 diabetics

Yes, but there's nothing in that link regarding reducing carbs while on insulin affecting meds.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

from Daisy1's post: "The info below is primarily aimed at people with type 2 diabetes, however, it may also be of benefit for other types of diabetes as well."

and: "To be able to see what effect a particular type of food or meal has on your blood sugar is to do a test before the meal and then test after the meal. A test 2 hours after the meal gives a good idea of how your body has reacted to the meal."

so someone on insulin or insulin affected meds would see the effect and be able to take the appropriate action.

and: "A large number of people on this forum have chosen to reduce " not cut out, not avoid, not fast for x number of hours, but just reduce and test to find their reaction.

Yes, I read all that and don't have a problem with the advice, except that none it is a warning of the risks of reducing carbs while on insulin or insulin affecting meds, which was one of your concerns about the dietary advice people give to newcomers to the forum, which I agree with.

 

[Goonergal]

I completely agree with your last paragraph. It has affected me like that, too - but to the point when I don't post much at all any more. This forum used to be my 'safe place' where everyone pulled together but, sadly, that is no longer the case.

That’s really sad to hear @Chook

There are a number of regulars on here whose posts resonate with me a lot more than others and you are one of them. I haven’t been affected by recent disagreements in the same way as those who have left, or like you who are no longer visiting/posting so much, but I do think the forum will be poorer for reduced input from long-standing members who always post in a balanced way.

 

[LittleGreyCat]

I strongly believe that newly diagnosed don't need the advice to fast for 24 hours! I was already extremely upset and heading towards depression and I think that would have tipped me over the edge!

Yep - I'm with the team on this one!

One common cry for help from the newly diagnosed is when they find they have high blood sugar and try to starve themselves back to normal BG but see their BG still rising as their liver dumps glucose because they are starving. It is so counter intuitive that they panic badly.

So yes, take a close look at what you are eating and perhaps eliminate the obvious bad guys immediately, but nothing as drastic as a 24 hour fast.

 

[woodywhippet61]

Yes, I read all that and don't have a problem with the advice, except that none it is a warning of the risks of reducing carbs while on insulin or insulin affecting meds, which was one of your concerns about the dietary advice people gave to newcomers to the forum, which I agree with.

This has been a useful exercise I think. When we are first diagnosed the last thing that we feel like doing is searching around for information or maybe even thinking straight. I can't even being to understand how someone on insulin would cope. So IMO Daisy1's message should be edited.

 

[Guzzler]

Throughout this debate I have been wondering just how long a timeframe the OP would advise not giving any dietary advice at all?

 

[lucylocket61]

Throughout this debate I have been wondering just how long a timeframe the OP would advise not giving any dietary advice at all?

I havent advised giving no information at all. I have advised paging Daisy1, sticking to the advice given in her post while waiting for @daisy1 to respond, and not telling people to stop all starchy carbs, fast, or any other possibly harmful advice until and unless we know if they are on insulin or insulin affecting medication, and what type of diabetic they are.

 

[Daibell]

Perhaps I can add my little bit. I've been reading and posting on this forum for many years. I've seen quite a few changes and conflicts and people leaving. There is probably less dietary/meds advice than a few years back. I don't have a view on that but I wouldn't like this forum to become like 'the other one' where I see (in my opinion) too many cuddly posts and not enough directed diabetes advice. Newbies may not be expecting or even want some of the advice but they may need it as diabetes is a serious condition and many GPs/DNs don't provide enough, or sometimes any, good advice. Our posts should always be carefully and politely presented and take account of diabetes type and any other available information. Reducing carbs will generally help and rarely if ever cause problems if not extreme and as long as Insulin/Gliclazide users are warned of the potential need to reduce the meds with GP/DN guidance if possible and frequent testing.

 

[woodywhippet61]

Throughout this debate I have been wondering just how long a timeframe the OP would advise not giving any dietary advice at all?

Yes I have too. How long does it take to befriend someone. Me it would be months maybe years. I don't give away my friendship that quickly/easily.

Personally I have a problem with what is being suggested because I would have given up on the forum rather as I did on the other one. Then I wouldn't have got the help and support that I needed.

 

[Neoncat]

As someone who just started reading this thread people seem to be confusing @lucy-locket 's message of "maybe we should just be a bit gentler with people to start with" with "an attack on if low carb diets work in general." As a type 1 I am happy to be told I do not have experience to advise a non-insulin using type 2 but I would agree that a lot of advice I see is often very aggressive in tone.

 

[CherryAA]

Yep - I'm with the team on this one!

One common cry for help from the newly diagnosed is when they find they have high blood sugar and try to starve themselves back to normal BG but see their BG still rising as their liver dumps glucose because they are starving. It is so counter intuitive that they panic badly.

So yes, take a close look at what you are eating and perhaps eliminate the obvious bad guys immediately, but nothing as drastic as a 24 hour fast.

I do so like to be controversial . My point really is only the one about speed. I do think that anything we can do to help those arriving to avoid the medication treadmill we should try to do. Once on them its really hard job to get off them and the stronger the drug the harder the struggle.
My point about the starting 24 hour fast, was only that if one started with this then one would get the ketones kicking in much faster and at that point its easier to start making sensible future switches because the all consuming hunger starts to go away faster. It is always easier to make changes when standing on a burning deck. For years people have been told that medications will help various situations when in practise they really are not as effective as people think compared with eating a proper diet.

 

[lucylocket61]

Yes I have too. How long does it take to befriend someone. Me it would be months maybe years. I don't give away my friendship that quickly/easily.

Personally I have a problem with what is being suggested because I would have given up on the forum rather as I did on the other one. Then I wouldn't have got the help and support that I needed.

I repeat, this is my initial post: "I am concerned about the dangers of incorrect advice and especially dietary advice, to new people, who post and, in the first days and week get well meaning but, ultimately, incorrect advice" the first week. Not weeks, not months, or looking to become besties, but the first few days.

 

[Boo1979]

Throughout this debate I have been wondering just how long a timeframe the OP would advise not giving any dietary advice at all?

Again I dont think its necessarily a case of not giving advice, rather not telling people what they “must” and “must not do”

 

[Guzzler]

I havent advised giving no information at all. I have advised paging Daisy1, sticking to the advice given in her post while waiting for @daisy1 to respond, and not telling people to stop all starchy carbs, fast, or any other possibly harmful advice until and unless we know if they are on insulin or insulin affecting medication, and what type of diabetic they are.

Maybe I misunderstood, I thought you said 'support' first and after 'befriending' then advice? What would be your timeframe inbetween the two?