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This is a much watch for all of us and our families

It is not possible to “lose (your) Diabetes permanently” just as it is not possible for anyone to claim that they will never get the disease in the first place.

T2D is a hugely complex disease with a myriad of causes.

I have no doubt that losing a large amount of weight in a short period of time is a very good way to remove the symptoms of the disease, and that the Newcastle diet is one of the better ways to achieve that, but nobody can possibly say they have “permanently “ cured themselves.
 
zand said:
@Tannith you say you have 'reversed your diabetes by following the Newcastle diet', yet here in this quote you say 'the Newcastle is for those who want to lose their diabetes permanently'. Do you believe you have in fact lost your diabetes permanently or merely reversed it like many of us who follow LCHF and/or IF for example?
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I believe it is now reversed unless and until I put the weight back on my pancreas and liver that I lost on the Newcastle. Weight lost from the pancreas allows the beta cells to wake up and work normally again as they do in non diabetics. Mine can now deal with carbs without my FBG going up and I have a normal HBA1C despite eating carbs and taking no drugs. Why would anyone want to put the weight back on after they had taken all that trouble to get it off? Prof Taylor has people from his study who have kept the weight off for seven years and their T2 has not come back. I realise that I still have the genetic tendency to T2 but I have had that since I was newborn and nobody called me diabetic then.
 
Tannith said:
I believe it is now reversed unless and until I put the weight back on my pancreas and liver that I lost on the Newcastle. Weight lost from the pancreas allows the beta cells to wake up and work normally again as they do in non diabetics. Mine can now deal with carbs without my FBG going up and I have a normal HBA1C despite eating carbs and taking no drugs. Why would anyone want to put the weight back on after they had taken all that trouble to get it off? Prof Taylor has people from his study who have kept the weight off for seven years and their T2 has not come back. I realise that I still have the genetic tendency to T2 but I have had that since I was newborn and nobody called me diabetic then.
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Well I never managed to lose enough weight doing the Newcastle diet. I have found low carb to be more effective in both weight loss and BG control. Of course no-one wants to put the weight back on, however very many people who go on crash diets (which is what an 800 cal diet is), do put it back on eventually. These meal replacement diets have been around for at least 40 years, I don't see any major difference in the Newcastle diet and any of the old plans. No-one wants to be fat regardless of whether they are diabetic or not. If keeping the weight off was so easy there wouldn't be a diet industry.
 
zand said:
Well I never managed to lose enough weight doing the Newcastle diet. I have found low carb to be more effective in both weight loss and BG control. Of course no-one wants to put the weight back on, however very many people who go on crash diets (which is what an 800 cal diet is), do put it back on eventually. These meal replacement diets have been around for at least 40 years, I don't see any major difference in the Newcastle diet and any of the old plans. No-one wants to be fat regardless of whether they are diabetic or not. If keeping the weight off was so easy there wouldn't be a diet industry.
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I used normal food not meal replacements: no shakes,meal replacement bars - and no soups other than those I made myself from fresh veggies from the market. I think the real food approach makes it mush easier not to put weight back on because you are already used to smaller normal meals before you finish the diet. Low carb is not relevant to me now because my body can now process carbs like a non diabetic, but of course I still have to watch the calories in case I put fat back on. I weigh myself daily so I can take immediate action if any of it starts to sneak back!
 
Tannith said:
I used normal food not meal replacements: no shakes,meal replacement bars - and no soups other than those I made myself from fresh veggies from the market. I think the real food approach makes it mush easier not to put weight back on because you are already used to smaller normal meals before you finish the diet. Low carb is not relevant to me now because my body can now process carbs like a non diabetic, but of course I still have to watch the calories in case I put fat back on. I weigh myself daily so I can take immediate action if any of it starts to sneak back!
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Yes, I used real food too. I think that maybe the Newcastle Diet doesn't work for people who are in the new diabetes category of SIRD- severe insulin resistant diabetes. The level of carbs in a mostly veggie diet was too high for me, even though I did just 600 cals because that's what the Newcastle Diet was called way back in 2011/2012 when I did it.

Edit:

I suppose that those people who have mild obese related diabetes would be the ones best suited to the Newcastle Diet. It has been assumed in the past that all obese people fell into this category and they simply need to cut calories to lose weight. Cutting calories (over very many years) simply slowed down my metabolism until I couldn't cut them any further, or add more exercise to lose weight. That's why I took exception to your comment that people using LCHF are 'happy to keep their diabetes' . The ND worked for you and I am genuinely pleased for you, it isn't that simple for everyone. Calories are simply not relevant to me as a SIRD, carbs are.
 
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Tannith said:
Newbies are the only people who will be virtually certain to succeed in losing their diabetes on a vlcal diet
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I agree that newly diagnosed are MORE LIKELY to succeed than a long term diabetic might, but they are certainly not "VIRTUALLY CERTAIN" to succeed in losing their diabetes. That is another of your sweeping statements. A good percentage of the Direct Study participants failed, and we wait to see if any of those that succeeded actually lost their diabetes completely.

None of this was about when I was first diagnosed, but I do know that had I been advised to follow it I would have failed on day one. In fact, I wouldn't even have contemplated it. I cannot be the only one to feel this way. I managed to fulfill the definition put forward by the Direct Study team for remission (under 48 HbA1c and no meds, large amount of weight loss) in 3 months from starting low carb and have maintained that status since 2014. Why would I put myself through such a restrictive diet, upset my metabolism, and upset my family?
 
Just to say that when I tried the ND I had been diagnosed for 1 day. I had already worked out I was insulin resistant, was already low carbing, and had seen the ND on TV. I made notes about it as I watched the programme and kept them for when I was eventually diagnosed as T2. There was very little about it on the net back then. I agree with most of the drift of your posts @Tannith , but not the sweeping generalizations. There has been success with the ND with people who have been diagnosed for a few years, not just newbies.

My own GP has told me to lose weight (but not how to do so) very many times. I asked about the ND and was told I could try it but he wouldn't help me or monitor me. I sometimes think that GPs suggest the vlcal diet because they assume that all obese people stuff themselves with food. When the vlcal diet doesn't work then of course the patient must have cheated grrrrr.

Edited by moderator to remove a quote from a post which has been deleted.
Also edited by zand to tag a member
 
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I am sorry @Tannith , but you have been claiming a permanent cure for diabetes here stating vlc diets are the best way for us here in a diabetic specific forum. But vlc diets have been around for many years now with many using meal replacement therapy such as Slimfast to lose weight, and so far there has been no real breakthrough until the ND diet started being sold in the press to the general public as the magic bullet. However, these claims are not being made by the study group themselves, but are media generated headlines.

It may well be true that ND and other vlc diets provide a good pathway for us to adopt, but so far there is no established link between pancreas / liver fat and diabetes (or IR), It is a working hypothesis that ND is hoping to prove, and other researchers are also working on it, but it is early days and too early to make those claims stick, The study I saw (Part 1) was inconclusive, but showed possible benefits in some, and the new Part2 (DIRECT) study is setting out to fine tune and hopefully improve the success rate. There is a growing set of results that will provide good raw data for future detailed analysis to provide a suitable vehicle that can be safely followed by all.

However there is more than one way to crack the nut, and just as you decry those that support LC dieting, so I too have problems with those that claim to have a simple permanent cure for diabetes at this stage of knowledge.

I use low carb diet for myself, but I do not claim reversal even though I, too, have seen significant improvement in my condition, Both LC and vlcal offer a viable way to an improved life with diabetes it seems. They are just two spanners in the toolkit.

Edited by moderator to remove a quote from a post which has been deleted.
Edit by Self: Agree
 
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Oldvatr said:
Both LC and vlcal offer a viable way to an improved life with diabetes it seems. They are just two spanners in the toolkit.
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I agree which is why I find it incredibly sad to see the media, as well as otherwise reputable sites holding out the illusion of a simple cure for diabetes rather than the more realistic / accurate / honest outcome of excellent control. Vlc and LCHF / keto are equally guilty
https://www.dietdoctor.com/how-to-cure-type-2-diabetes
 
Bluetit1802 said:
I agree that newly diagnosed are MORE LIKELY to succeed than a long term diabetic might, but they are certainly not "VIRTUALLY CERTAIN" to succeed in losing their diabetes. That is another of your sweeping statements. A good percentage of the Direct Study participants failed, and we wait to see if any of those that succeeded actually lost their diabetes completely.

None of this was about when I was first diagnosed, but I do know that had I been advised to follow it I would have failed on day one. In fact, I wouldn't even have contemplated it. I cannot be the only one to feel this way. I managed to fulfill the definition put forward by the Direct Study team for remission (under 48 HbA1c and no meds, large amount of weight loss) in 3 months from starting low carb and have maintained that status since 2014. Why would I put myself through such a restrictive diet, upset my metabolism, and upset my family?
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87% of those on the Direct study WHO LOST SUFFICIENT WEIGHT ie 15 to 20%, succeeded. I call that "virtually certain". Its not for everyone, many people as I said before are happy not to attempt to reverse their T2. In the UK as a whole (rather than the people on here), I understand that the great majority prefer to just keep their diabetes and swallow a pill to treat their T2, and continue eating as they did before.Either drugs or low carb will get the BGs down and stop/reduce the complications.
 
I may be misremembering again or thinking of a different study but the figures for ND were 46% achieved 15% weight loss and were drug free/maintained for one year. So that leaves 54% who did not reach the targets, one of which was an A1c of <53.
Participants met opening criteria of being diagnosed less than six years.

As to those who are happy to pop a pill and carry on with a 'normal' diet, we must consider the question of awareness of alternative approaches and more importantly the advice on diet given by HCPs.
 
Oldvatr said:
I am sorry @Tannith , but you have been claiming a permanent cure for diabetes here stating vlc diets are the best way for us here in a diabetic specific forum. But vlc diets have been around for many years now with many using meal replacement therapy such as Slimfast to lose weight, and so far there has been no real breakthrough until the ND diet started being sold in the press to the general public as the magic bullet. However, these claims are not being made by the study group themselves, but are media generated headlines.

It may well be true that ND and other vlc diets provide a good pathway for us to adopt, but so far there is no established link between pancreas / liver fat and diabetes (or IR), It is a working hypothesis that ND is hoping to prove, and other researchers are also working on it, but it is early days and too early to make those claims stick, The study I saw (Part 1) was inconclusive, but showed possible benefits in some, and the new Part2 (DIRECT) study is setting out to fine tune and hopefully improve the success rate. There is a growing set of results that will provide good raw data for future detailed analysis to provide a suitable vehicle that can be safely followed by all.

However there is more than one way to crack the nut, and just as you decry those that support LC dieting, so I too have problems with those that claim to have a simple permanent cure for diabetes at this stage of knowledge.

I use low carb diet for myself, but I do not claim reversal even though I, too, have seen significant improvement in my condition, Both LC and vlcal offer a viable way to an improved life with diabetes it seems. They are just two spanners in the toolkit.

Edited by moderator to remove a quote from a post which has been deleted.
Edit by Self: Agree
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I don't "decry" low carb I think it has its uses, in particular for those who either chose not to do a vlcd or for whom it did not work. Especially those who can't reasonably be expected to take metformin because they get horrid side effects from it. If I were in that position I would certainly use it. We have known for a decade or more that losing weight could reverse early diabetes, and many doctors still suggest it as a first option, or combined with drugs . What Professor Taylor did was discover the MECHANISM by which it worked ie fat loss from the liver and pancreas. He also discovered the "personal fat threshold" He can't be blamed for those people who did not follow the diet correctly or for long enough. No diet works if you don't follow it properly. I don''t suppose low carb would work if you gorged on carbs. Just because the method (vlcd) works it does not mean that everyone who tries it will succeed. Just those who lose the weight from their pancreas and liver.
 
britishpub said:
It is not possible to “lose (your) Diabetes permanently” just as it is not possible for anyone to claim that they will never get the disease in the first place.

T2D is a hugely complex disease with a myriad of causes.

I have no doubt that losing a large amount of weight in a short period of time is a very good way to remove the symptoms of the disease, and that the Newcastle diet is one of the better ways to achieve that, but nobody can possibly say they have “permanently “ cured themselves.
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Nah, diabetes sucks.

It's there for life, the best you can do is low carb, and put off the end results for a while.
But low carb really works.
 
Tannith said:
I don't "decry" low carb I think it has its uses, in particular for those who either chose not to do a vlcd or for whom it did not work. Especially those who can't reasonably be expected to take metformin because they get horrid side effects from it. If I were in that position I would certainly use it. We have known for a decade or more that losing weight could reverse early diabetes, and many doctors still suggest it as a first option, or combined with drugs . What Professor Taylor did was discover the MECHANISM by which it worked ie fat loss from the liver and pancreas. He also discovered the "personal fat threshold" He can't be blamed for those people who did not follow the diet correctly or for long enough. No diet works if you don't follow it properly. I don''t suppose low carb would work if you gorged on carbs. Just because the method (vlcd) works it does not mean that everyone who tries it will succeed. Just those who lose the weight from their pancreas and liver.
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Low carb is the only way to go.
 
Tannith said:
I don't "decry" low carb I think it has its uses, in particular for those who either chose not to do a vlcd or for whom it did not work. Especially those who can't reasonably be expected to take metformin because they get horrid side effects from it. If I were in that position I would certainly use it. We have known for a decade or more that losing weight could reverse early diabetes, and many doctors still suggest it as a first option, or combined with drugs . What Professor Taylor did was discover the MECHANISM by which it worked ie fat loss from the liver and pancreas. He also discovered the "personal fat threshold" He can't be blamed for those people who did not follow the diet correctly or for long enough. No diet works if you don't follow it properly. I don''t suppose low carb would work if you gorged on carbs. Just because the method (vlcd) works it does not mean that everyone who tries it will succeed. Just those who lose the weight from their pancreas and liver.
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How do you assess a person, diagnosed with T2 diabetes, who adopts a reduced carb lifestyle, then finds themselves with a series of HbA1cs, over a four year period to all be under 36, and finds themselves able to pass an OGTT, and removed from their practise Diabetes Register? Do you consider that person has "got rid of" their T2 or otherwise?
 
lowcarbboy said:
Low carb is the only way to go.
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No, it is one way to go but there are other pathways that have also shown some success. The LCHF diet scores over many of them in that it is a relatively simple lifestyle change that can be maintained successfully for prolonged periods (3 years in my case) It is also a releatively cheap path and does not need expensive special to diet foods and supplements. It is also adaptable to include other groups such as vegetarians or those with a lactose or gluten intolerance and also other conditions such as RH and other metabolic problems. It is also useful for non-diabetics let us not forget.
 
I am confused. 87% of those who lost 15kg so is that 87% of the 46% who met their targets? How many people does this equate to? I blummin' hate statistics, you can bend em and shake em up to say owt.
 
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