Fasting for Autophagy

[ickihun]

Thanks @Guzzler I will have another go. I took my before and after measurements and 24 hours made a noticeable difference - half a centimetre off my waist, 0.4kg weight loss and ketones up by 1.2 - to 3.3, which is about as high as I want them to go, so will be making sure I eat enough today.

Out of interest was your bg in double figures on 3. 3 ketones?

 

[ickihun]

If your glucose is low, eg in the 4s and your ketones are 3+ with a 24hr fast, I would think you are pretty fat adapted and doing very well.

Typically it would take up to 48 hours to reach that level and as can be see in this chart, ketones between 5-7 mmols is where it become the main fuel in a multi-day fast.

Will post be sweating with 3.3 ketones and burning fat?

 

[kokhongw]

The main challenge for T2D in attempting a multi-day fast is that fasting glucose levels are high and due to insulin resistance, insulin levels may be even higher. All these suppress ketones production and it would take much longer to achieve the metabolic switch.

Hence a low carb ketogenic diet and intermittent fasting greatly helps to achieve that metabolic flexibility.

 

[Goonergal]

Will there be a chance of doing it again if cream is no help?

Will definitely try water only again. Cream generally helps on my ‘normal’ IF days, in the sense that it helps get me through. The water only was an attempt to move things up a notch, which it seems to have done, but yesterday my body just couldn’t deal with the side effects.

May be different on another day.

 

[Goonergal]

Out of interest was your bg in double figures on 3. 3 ketones?

No. My highest reading yesterday was 5.2 after the rather large dinner I had when I abandoned the fast. Lowest was 3.8 (which is not unusual for me on an IF day).

 

[ickihun]

Remind me again. What is the benefit of Autophagy, again?

 

[kokhongw]

Remind me again. What is the benefit of Autophagy, again?

https://fitness.mercola.com/sites/fitness/archive/2016/03/11/autophagy.aspx

 

[Goonergal]

Remind me again. What is the benefit of Autophagy, again?

Hi @ickihun have a look at posts #29, 30 and 32 above - combined thoughts of bulkbiker, Brunneria and me!

 

[ickihun]

Thank you @bulkbiker and @Brunneria

I have some reading to do!

Me too.

 

[ickihun]

So is Autophagy a side affect of fasting?

Why does some fasting not produce Autophagy? Lack of circulating yeast and proteins.
Excessive or empty fat cells arent the same as dead fat cells. So weight loss needed first, then fasting and Autophagy recommended? How do you kill a fat cell? I know how to empty them but I've never killed any. As far as I know.

 

[kokhongw]

Back in 2014 Valter Longo published a study that shows that fasting triggers stem cells regeneration
https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regeneration-of-damaged-old-immune-system/

Fasting cycles
Prolonged fasting forces the body to use stores of glucose, fat and ketones, but it also breaks down a significant portion of white blood cells. Longo likens the effect to lightening a plane of excess cargo.

During each cycle of fasting, this depletion of white blood cells induces changes that trigger stem cell-based regeneration of new immune system cells. In particular, prolonged fasting reduced the enzyme PKA, an effect previously discovered by the Longo team to extend longevity in simple organisms and which has been linked in other research to the regulation of stem cell self-renewal and pluripotency — that is, the potential for one cell to develop into many different cell types. Prolonged fasting also lowered levels of IGF-1, a growth-factor hormone that Longo and others have linked to aging, tumor progression and cancer risk.

“PKA is the key gene that needs to shut down in order for these stem cells to switch into regenerative mode. It gives the OK for stem cells to go ahead and begin proliferating and rebuild the entire system,” explained Longo, noting the potential of clinical applications that mimic the effects of prolonged fasting to rejuvenate the immune system. “And the good news is that the body got rid of the parts of the system that might be damaged or old, the inefficient parts, during the fasting. Now, if you start with a system heavily damaged by chemotherapy or aging, fasting cycles can generate, literally, a new immune system.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4102383/

 

[Incyb]

I did a few 3 day fasts last year, and lots of 2 day ones, taking only water. I'm a client in Fung's distance IDM program. I can't say I enjoyed it BG used to go to 3.7, with blood ketones of about 3.8. I do 20/4 or 16/8 every day now. Weight has been stable since October.

 

[john1957]

Stick to water cream contains milk carbs

 

[Kailee56]

A bit late, but you want to avoid carbs and protein for autophagy to kick in. Cream is iffy since it has some protein and they know that it doesn’t take much protein to stop autophagy. You can add a bit of ghee, coconut oil, or MCT oil to the coffe. Not the same as cream, but the additional fat can help curb the urge to eat and give a bit more energy in the first day or so. I have been known to use MCT oil powder for an energy kick. No protein, but 1 fiber carb. It acts more like cream than the others.

Someone mentioned the increased blood glucose with fasting. I read somewhere that mTOR looks at ingested nutrients. The glucose released by your liver does not effect it, therefore it does not stop autophagy. I will try to find the article and post it.

ADDENDUM: When in doubt, check out Dr Fung.
- If you are only fasting for a few days to increase autophagy, the addition of oils should not matter.
- The same goes for naturally released glucose vs ingested.

If, however, you are planning a longer fast, AMPK looks at cellular energy and will not kick in to help with autophagy if you consume any energy producing products. By the time it kicks in, there should not be stored glycogen available for release as glucose, so blood glucose levels should not be elevated. It normally takes weeks to kick in.

Scroll down to the caveman pix and start reading from just above it.

https://idmprogram.com/longevity-mtor-autophagy-3/

 

[ianpspurs]

OK, very late to the party here but do read @Goonergal posts carefully. I now follow an IF routine by missing breakfast therefore having something like an 18:6 or 17:7 pattern. I am assuming my 2 hour breakfast equivalent readings are somehow affected by this and am looking for different ways of dealing with this.
Having read this thread from the start and followed the link to Lungo's products that is out . Read the Telegraph article linked by @Brunneria and saw posters like @bulkbiker and @Bluetit1802 in here so knew it must be good. So, has anyone followed or adapted the recipes/plan from the Telegraph article as that seems to be something I could follow?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/nutrition/why-weve-all-been-doing-the-fast-diet-wrong/

 

[Sue192]

OK, very late to the party here but do read @Goonergal posts carefully. I now follow an IF routine by missing breakfast therefore having something like an 18:6 or 17:7 pattern. I am assuming my 2 hour breakfast equivalent readings are somehow affected by this and am looking for different ways of dealing with this.
Having read this thread from the start and followed the link to Lungo's products that is out . Read the Telegraph article linked by @Brunneria and saw posters like @bulkbiker and @Bluetit1802 in here so new it must be good. So, has anyone followed or adapted the recipes/plan from the Telegraph article as that seems to be something I could follow?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/nutrition/why-weve-all-been-doing-the-fast-diet-wrong/

Thanks for posting that link, @ianpspurs. I've been following @Goonergal's fasting with interest (and others' fasting too) but I think the FMD might work better for me - I like the fact that you would do it three/four times a year rather than frequently as the 18:6 etc (although 18:6 is ok for me). I'd also be interested to learn if anyone has followed the Telegraph/FMD plan.

 

[rab5]

Thanks, will do!

count me in also.... I will give it a bash

well done on what you did accomplish. "Fastinating"......see what I did there!

 

[ianpspurs]

Thanks for posting that link, I like the fact that you would do it three/four times a year rather than frequently as the 18:6 etc (although 18:6 is ok for me). I'd also be interested to learn if anyone has followed the Telegraph/FMD plan.

@Sue192 running some meal plans through MFP they seem to come up far higher % protein them Lungo's plan

 

[Sue192]

@Sue192 running some meal plans through MFP they seem to come up far higher % protein them Lungo's plan

Oh. Hmm. I feel a fact-finding rummage through the internet coming on....! Thanks again @ianpspurs

 

[bulkbiker]

OK, very late to the party here but do read @Goonergal posts carefully. I now follow an IF routine by missing breakfast therefore having something like an 18:6 or 17:7 pattern. I am assuming my 2 hour breakfast equivalent readings are somehow affected by this and am looking for different ways of dealing with this.
Having read this thread from the start and followed the link to Lungo's products that is out . Read the Telegraph article linked by @Brunneria and saw posters like @bulkbiker and @Bluetit1802 in here so new it must be good. So, has anyone followed or adapted the recipes/plan from the Telegraph article as that seems to be something I could follow?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/nutrition/why-weve-all-been-doing-the-fast-diet-wrong/

Personally rather than f**ting around with Lungo's protocol I'd just fast with water/tea/coffee/broth a few times a year. If you have been low carbing for long enough and intermittent fasting then going without for a few days should be relatively easy. Also doing water only would virtually guarantee autophagy whereas in my view Longo is guessing that his protocol may work because there's currently no way of "knowing" if you are undergoing autophagy. Just my 2p worth (gone all decimal these days)!