Lesser carb, lesser insulin: consequences

[jpscloud]

I am reading on ketone metabolism and I come across this. These caught my attention. It generates free radicals. During non fasted and carb limited time, our livers also produce Keynes.

https://www.diapedia.org/metabolism-and-hormones/51040851169/ketone-body-metabolism

Ketone bodies stimulate insulin release in vitro, generate oxygen radicals and cause lipid peroxidation. Lipid peroxidation and the generation of oxygen radicals may play a role in vascular disease in diabetes[2].

Your quoted extract is taken from tbe section entitled Ketoacidosis, and refers to that condition, I think - out of context as we are discussing nutritional ketosis?

Sorry, not entitled Ketoacidosis, but exclusively concerning that.

I should take more time when posting Your quoted extract concerns abnormally high levels of ketones, at the opposite end of the scale from nutritional ketosis.

And yet another edit: So the role that lipid peroxidation and the generation of oxygen radicals may play in vascular disease in diabetes is probably dependent on the levels of ketone bodies seen in uncontrolled diabetes, in the condition of ketoacidosis... at least this is how it seems to me.

 

[kitedoc]

Your account on ketone is consistent with the science on how the brain adapts when carb is scarce for prolonged duration. I would think there will be a drop in brain function before ketosis kicks in. When it finally kicks in, does one smells weird in breath and body odour? Any other obvious signs and symptoms?

Bodybuilders abuse insulin when they apparently still have healthy insulin metabolism. They target to use accurate ratio of carbs in a big meal (containing lots of carbs and proteins):insulin, to drive massive amount of nutrients into their muscles. When the ratio of insulin:carb is too high, they will need to be sent to the hospital.

I personally believe insulin resistance could also be a protective mechanism to spare glucose for the brain cells from hungry muscle cells. In the case of pathology glucose metabolism, it could be due to aging and genetically susceptibility.

Some points to be made:
Thinking there is a drop in brain function before ketosis kicks in is pretty vague. Do you have any actual evidence of this?
And you will be aware that sodium levels change but also going the other way from ketosis back to higher carb intake.
And why do bodybuilders need to go to hospital if using insulin with too high insulin:carb ratio, please be a little more explicit.
Any evidence for insulin resistance being a protective mechanism for brain vs muscle.? And any about ageing?
Not all farmers are crop farmers - do you really think sheep, cattle, fish and dairy farmers will necessarily be high carb eaters?
Zoe Harcombe's research and posts suggest that saturated fat and cholesterol are not the causes of cardio-vascular disease but increase in carbohydrate in societies is associated with it. And do crop framers these days have a very physically active life?
Whilst some hunter gatherers would have access to seasonal fruits etc , very unlikely in Inuit and Laplanders before the infiltration of Western diets - they appear to have survived well on zero carb diets in geography where good hunting skills would have been vital. It appears that they were able to obtain all necessary calories, vitamins and minerals with such diets (including vitamin C). So proving that carbs are not necessary.
I gather the argument for athletes doing sprints appear to be use glycogen mainly - but how necessary is such high performance necessary in real life?
Yes, the very high carb diets mentioned by @tim2000s raise queries. Is this showing man's great ability to adapt? I will be chasing that one up !! Also the ability of some papua New Guinea tribes to survive mainly on tubers.
Whilst at the same time modern cultivars of fruit eaten by zoo animals are causing too much dental decay !! (Melbourne Zoo, Australia).
I do wonder how one obtains enough essential protein on a very high carb diet of fruit, and legumes. I am guessing that the quantities count somehow - but need to check this further also.

 

[millenium]

Your quoted extract is taken from tbe section entitled Ketoacidosis, and refers to that condition, I think - out of context as we are discussing nutritional ketosis?

Sorry, not entitled Ketoacidosis, but exclusively concerning that.

I should take more time when posting Your quoted extract concerns abnormally high levels of ketones, at the opposite end of the scale from nutritional ketosis.

And yet another edit: So the role that lipid peroxidation and the generation of oxygen radicals may play in vascular disease in diabetes is probably dependent on the levels of ketone bodies seen in uncontrolled diabetes, in the condition of ketoacidosis... at least this is how it seems to me.

Thanks for pointing out the difference in ketosis in near zero carbs intake and uncontrol diabetic state. The difference could be the concentration of Ketones in the blood.

 

[Brunneria]

Thanks for pointing out the difference in ketosis in near zero carbs intake and uncontrol diabetic state. The difference could be the concentration of Ketones in the blood.

It is more complex than that, and involves insulin levels (or their lack), as well as other factors.

 

[millenium]

It is more complex than that, and involves insulin levels (or their lack), as well as other factors.

The efficiency of insulin in the body.

As I said, I am not familiar with ketone as a fuel yet.

 

[millenium]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketone_bodies

Very detailed info on ketone bodies.