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Lesser carb, lesser insulin: consequences

Discussion in 'Diabetes Discussions' started by millenium, Apr 21, 2019.

  1. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    Erm... I am without choice a person who is almost 100% sedentary. And yet with dietary changes and Metformin only I now sit here with non D numbers.
     
  2. NicoleC1971

    NicoleC1971 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    If the question is Do we need insulin? then the answer is yes (it is analogous to the spark for petrol in a combustion engine). Do you need to eat starchy carbs to generate insulin. No. The lower carb you go the more gluconeogensis goes on (conversion of protein into glucose) and non starchy veg still require a little insulin to digest them.
    As has been pointed out we are evolved to work on minimal levels of insulin and longevity studies seem to show that the less you have, the better but there is a physiological limit to how low this can go unless you are a type 1.. Those modern and traditional peoples who do well on a high starch diet e.g. Katarvans are acutely insulin sensitive probably because they eat non processed food and do not have huge blood sugar spikes that the majority of people eating a modern diet will get unless they are a) genetically blessed b) professional athletes.
    Sadly there seems to be no easy way to measure basal insulin to check that you are insulin sensitive before we run into disease processes so we have to go for proxy measures e.g. thickening waist line, hypertension , fatty liver and eventually type 2 diabetes.
    Re brain and glucose - the body preferentially uses glucose for the brain but can adapt to a mixed fuel of both ketones and glucose. Hence even pure carnivores are converting some of those steaks into glucose for use by the brain.
    As a long standing type 1(with no endogenous insulin I assume) I am always amazed at how much basal insulin is needed ! On a low carb diet it is always so much more than my bolus doses (a ration of 3:1 unless I've been eating too many Easter eggs).
     
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  3. LooperCat

    LooperCat Type 1 · Expert

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    I think a lot of the problems stem from the increased bioavailability of the carbohydrate from modern cultivars of grains, root veg etc. We hardly have to even digest the stuff for the glucose contained in the cells to be released any more. Plumper grains, larger, starchier veg - these are all a world away from what our ancestors were eating, even when their diets featured these foods heavily. Their bodies really had to work to get at the energy contained within. That’s why it all tastes so sweet - glucose is being released as soon as we start to chew!
     
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  4. millenium

    millenium Carer · Well-Known Member

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    That is fair enough. Being ketogenic could be a natural adaptation mechanism.
     
  5. millenium

    millenium Carer · Well-Known Member

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    My question can be.... Can the low insulin caused by very low carb diet compromise the body from ultimate functioning?
    Very sound explanations.
     
  6. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    Or just a natural state.
     
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  7. NicoleC1971

    NicoleC1971 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    If the main function of insulin is to manage energy flux/facilitate growth then I'd guess we would see low carb and keto folks complaining of low energy/fatigue (which they do as their bodies adapt but after that seem to feel great) however I think it is fair to say that nobody is entirely sure if there are detrimental effects of a low insulin diet'; nutrition being a very young and problematic science. The main objections to the low carb approach is that it is high fat and therefore may hypothetically cause heart disease (despite huge efforts this hasn't been proven). However I think we do know the detrimental effects on some people of a high insulin diet!!
    .Interestingly the jury still seems to be out for high performance athletes requiring a burst of energy to the muscles to complete a sprint or shoot a hoop etc. which is a great excuse to eat a little chocolate before a high intensity session....
     
  8. Happy hippy

    Happy hippy Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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  9. Happy hippy

    Happy hippy Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    JohnE Green.
    Hi. Thanks for information. The carb bit i found worrying.
    I want to go low carb but I have ulcerative colitis and my bowel stays calm with carby food.
    I have a delemer. Do I eat for my bowel or my type 2.
    Regards. Maddy.
     
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  10. kokhongw

    kokhongw I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    That is likely because exogenous/injected insulin cannot reach the same level of concentration in the liver vs release from the pancreas to inhibit glucagon action. This was highlighted in Amy Berger blogpost referenced in this thread.
    https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/beyond-insulin.162464/#post-2012033

    upload_2019-4-24_14-48-18.png
     
  11. kokhongw

    kokhongw I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Ketones ARE neuroprotective. This presentation by Dr Stephen Cunnane provide some useful insights...
     
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  12. millenium

    millenium Carer · Well-Known Member

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    Insulin when effective in the body is a great booster to move nutrients into body cells but when present inefficiently, it has harmful effects on the body
    Agree with u. But to get into ketosis and keep it there can be challenging.
     
  13. NicoleC1971

    NicoleC1971 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for that link. Also seen Ben Bikman and am surprised nobody had ever mentioned to me that endogemous insulin supresses glucagon/alpha cells in the pancreas whereas the exogenous stuff doesn't hence I need a steady drip of insulin just to cope with that effect. So much nore complicated that carbs vs. insulin!
     
  14. NicoleC1971

    NicoleC1971 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    I am living proof that too little insulin is damaging and prior to 1922 was deadly, but lets not forget that most type 2s are insulin resistant and typically produce too much insulin. Even when metabolically healed with beta cells recovered they may be the type of person who's prone to over-secrete insulin.
     
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  15. millenium

    millenium Carer · Well-Known Member

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    Agree.
     
  16. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    "Challenging" is rather a subjective term.
     
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  17. millenium

    millenium Carer · Well-Known Member

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    I am reading on ketone metabolism and I come across this. These caught my attention. It generates free radicals. During non fasted and carb limited time, our livers also produce Keynes.

    https://www.diapedia.org/metabolism-and-hormones/51040851169/ketone-body-metabolism

    Ketone bodies stimulate insulin release in vitro, generate oxygen radicals and cause lipid peroxidation. Lipid peroxidation and the generation of oxygen radicals may play a role in vascular disease in diabetes[2].
     
  18. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    In Vitro
     
  19. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    Our ancestors would have been metabolically flexible, able to switch between ketogenesis and glucose metabolism easily enough. The "challenge" for today's human reared on an extremely highly processed, highly refined carb diet is to almost remind the body that it can do very well on the fuel that is said to be cleaner, more efficient, less harmful long term. Remember, the human foetus is in ketosis and the neonate who is solely fed on human breast milk is also using ketones as its main fuel (and why do they gain weight and supply the developing brain with sufficient fuel? Sat fats andOligosaccharides).
    Why then, given that all living things are driven to pass on offspring/DNA would the human put at risk of harm and/or death of offspring by evolving to use a fuel that is harmful?
     
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  20. millenium

    millenium Carer · Well-Known Member

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    Your argument make sense.
     
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