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Lesser carb, lesser insulin: consequences

Discussion in 'Diabetes Discussions' started by millenium, Apr 21, 2019.

  1. millenium

    millenium Carer · Well-Known Member

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    Many of us including myself have successfully controlled bg levels by carb restriction. I want to discuss if low carbs, lesser insulin can cause body to be less nourished given that insulin is an important anabolic hormone that drive many nutrients into our cells.
     
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  2. endocrinegremlin

    endocrinegremlin Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    I personally think that carbs and sugars are a natural part of a person's diet to some degree and therefore the insulin required to balance that out. Many, many people here will disagree. I think our bodies produce insulin to handle these nutrients for a reason but I only have my belief just as those who disagree. I am not aware of any science I can give that supports the point of lesser insulin causing less nourishment other than the knowledge that lack of any other hormone in the body is known to be bad and we don't just tiptoe around those.
     
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  3. Mbaker

    Mbaker Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    Hard to say in the physiology of a Type 1. In general I believe our pancreas has been asked to cope with an unnatural volume and frequency of carbs.

    We have gone from around a pound of sugar per person per annum to over 70; in the general population you can see that over a similar period of time the results have been devastating. When the "input" is pulled back, in most people (certainly non-Type 1's), even without exercise many bio markers are healthy, and if there was excess weight improvement occurs.

    Last week someone posted and video and pictures on the site which showed the rise in time of basal insulin; we now know this is a route cause for many chronic dysfunction.
     
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  4. JohnEGreen

    JohnEGreen Other · Master

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    You can survive or even thrive eating only meat.
    You can survive and may be thrive on a diet of total or near total fat.

    Eat a diet that consists of just carbohydrates and you would survive for about two months.

    This should give an indication of the necessity for carbs in your diet if you eat them exclusively they will kill you in a relatively short time instead of slowly over a longer period .
     
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  5. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    Do you have any links for that info John?
    I’d be really interested to read the stuff on carbs.
    Protein, I would agree with (having been carnivore now for nearly 15 months). Not sure about the fat, since protein is essential. But that is a sort lifespan on just carbs (since many carbs come with protein attached), so v curious to see how they tested it...

    As for the OP’s question:

    Someone with the capacity to produce insulin will do so, all day, every day, whether they eat carbs or not, since insulin has multiple functions.

    The body may be able to manage without dietary carbs, but very small amounts of glucose are still needed. This can be produced by breaking down other foods to create glucose.

    These are the functions of insulin in the human body
    http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/pancreas/insulin_phys.html
    And they are much more extensive (including fat, protein and potassium metabolism) than just pushing glucose into cells.
     
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    #5 Brunneria, Apr 21, 2019 at 8:22 AM
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
  6. JohnEGreen

    JohnEGreen Other · Master

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    No links information gained from several lectures by physiology lecturers while doing degree.

    The effects of an elusively carbohydrate diet where determined many years ago and you are not going to like this but the nazis carried out several phisiological experiments on inmates of concentration camps one well documented one was the experiments concerning extremes of temereratures on the human body ie survival rates in extremely cold temperatures the data from which was not discarded after the war but was used in the design of survival equipment and the calculation of survival times on cold water.

    One less documented experiment was what would happen if you fed humans only carbohydrate the result was most subjects survived about two months before succumbing.

    Mind you some of the reports I have read on the subject of concentration camp experiments may be apocryphal in their nature but a huge number of experiments where carried out leading to the separate trial of doctors after the war a document from the Nuremberg military tribunals prosecution included medical experiments revolving around: food, seawater, epidemic jaundice, sulfanilamide, blood coagulation and phlegmone. According to the indictments at the Nuremberg Trials
     
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  7. KK123

    KK123 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Hi John, you could say that about any food group that didn't contain protein couldn't you? If you ate a fat only diet (without protein) wouldn't you also die? I agree that eating vast amounts of carbohydrates almost exclusively isn't good for anyone but I am of the opinion that there are also good carbs, ie many vegetables.
     
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  8. KK123

    KK123 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Brunneria, Thank you for that link. It's easy to think of insulin as exclusively associated with keeping glucose levels down only but it is crucial in so many other functions as well. Fascinating.
     
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  9. LooperCat

    LooperCat Type 1 · Expert

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    From my n=1 experience as a type one, restricting carbs to <30g a day for 15 months now...

    I feel almost superhuman compared to how I felt when I was eating a high carb diet and dosing insulin accordingly. I can’t imagine how I could feel so great if my body wasn’t getting adequate nutrition. I was at the point of applying for PIP and sickness benefits before I made the switch. Now I’m working four days a week as a science teacher and volunteering as a community first responder with the Welsh ambulance service on the fifth - and I’m going back to university in September to train to be a paramedic. And I don’t even eat meat ;)
     
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  10. millenium

    millenium Carer · Well-Known Member

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    Insulin made driving many nutrients (including protein) into the cells much more effective. From what I notice, the only successful diabetic bodybuilders are those that are using insulin. The abuse or discovery of the value of insulin in bodybuilding stemmed from diabetic bodybuilders. Only in endurance sports have I heard of a few low carbs or ketogenic athletes getting successful.

    From an evolutionary point of view, humans are likely to be healthier without excessive carbs. But too low carbs maybe compromise brain functioning. I am not familiar with brain functioning on ketones though, so I cannot comment on this.
     
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  11. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    The brain is quite happy to run on ketones. Any glucose we need (cells without mitochondria must have glucose) we can get from gluconeogenesis. The human body leaves nothing to chance where the brain is concerned.
     
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  12. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    Brain function on ketones is excellent. I have personal experience of this, and it is supported by an increasing number of studies.
    This article gives lots of references to studies covering several aspects of brain function helped by ketones - from Alzheimers to epilepsy and diabetic brain fog.
    https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/low-carb-ketogenic-diet-brain

    Exogenous insulin for body building is absolutely NOT necessary (unless you have T1, in which case you need the insulin to live), and is a comparatively recent phenomenon in body building. Previous generations managed perfectly well without it. Neither are carbs necessarily required for body building.
    https://perfectketo.com/keto-bodybuilding/
    https://www.kevinstock.io/health/how-to-build-muscle-on-the-carnivore-diet/
     
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  13. millenium

    millenium Carer · Well-Known Member

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    Your account on ketone is consistent with the science on how the brain adapts when carb is scarce for prolonged duration. I would think there will be a drop in brain function before ketosis kicks in. When it finally kicks in, does one smells weird in breath and body odour? Any other obvious signs and symptoms?

    Bodybuilders abuse insulin when they apparently still have healthy insulin metabolism. They target to use accurate ratio of carbs in a big meal (containing lots of carbs and proteins):insulin, to drive massive amount of nutrients into their muscles. When the ratio of insulin:carb is too high, they will need to be sent to the hospital.

    I personally believe insulin resistance could also be a protective mechanism to spare glucose for the brain cells from hungry muscle cells. In the case of pathology glucose metabolism, it could be due to aging and genetically susceptibility.
     
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    #13 millenium, Apr 21, 2019 at 12:55 PM
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
  14. avebabe62

    avebabe62 · Newbie

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    Hi iv been type 1 for a year now I do lchf diet I have approx 60 carbs a day and it keeps blood sugar under control for me. I also do a lot of walking 10 _15 miles mostly trail walking if the weather is to bad I bought an excerise bike which keeps blood sugar even
     
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  15. tim2000s

    tim2000s Type 1 · Expert
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    Except that we know that people who are eating a diet very high in unprocessed and mostly raw fruits and vegetables, and legumes, with almost no saturated fats are also surviving and thriving, with ridiculous grams of carbs per day and very little insulin (I happen to know a couple of T1s who eat this way, a la MangoMan), which puts a lie to the latter statement.

    Yes, LCHF and LCHP work, but it does seem that HCVLF also works. As has been pointed out on multiple occasions within the forum, extreme food choices in all directions seem to have similar effects.
     
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  16. aealexandrou

    aealexandrou Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Even if you are against grains in diet, as humans we have been eating carbs since the dawn of time, as such carbs, sugars and insulin are interconnected and a natural part of our system. What you are failing to appreciate is the amount of carbs and in particular, process sugar that we have been consuming for the last three decades, which is not natural, hence T2D.
     
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  17. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    Hardly "the dawn of time", roughly 10.000 years which is a mere blip on the evolutionary clock. For dairy it is even less time, roughly 7.000 years.
     
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  18. aealexandrou

    aealexandrou Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    On the basis that humans and pre-humans were hunter/gatherers and their diet would have included honey, wild fruits, roots and other forms of wild vegetation, the consumption of carbohydrates would have existed since 'the dawn of time'. Our liver and pancreas functions were created long before human civilisation and reliance on grains as a food source. But it has only been in the last 50 years or so that modern western food has evolved exclusively towards a wholly processed carbohydrate diet, which is spreading unabated throughout the world, and is giving us the chronic diseases we now all expect to get.
     
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  19. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    Pre agriculture the carbs would have been seasonal. I agree that since the industrial revolution (which made sugar available to more people) the trend has increased wrt ill health and with the diet heart myth plus the rise in processed foods with its concomitant advertising not to mention the shenanigans that Big Food creates in our Health guidelines has, indeed, led to the sad state of world health today.
     
  20. millenium

    millenium Carer · Well-Known Member

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    You missed out the agriculture revolution in between. Farmers led a physically active lifestyle. A high carb diet suits an active lifestyle as insulin works very well on depleted muscles.

    Problem arises when one is not physically active. The excess carbs have no place to go and sedentary muscles do not have much storage limit for glycogen. This combined with high carb intake for prolong time will stressed the pancreas till it starts to detoriate.
     
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