Type 2 Reversing type 2

M

Member496333

Guest
After my insulin tests I used the HOMAR calculator and it says 0.9 which is insulin sensitive. That should be a good thing.. so why do I only have to have a couple of berries or a square of 90% chocolate, or even a slice of low carb bread, a bit too much protein and my BG goes high. So confused by this homar calculator. Thanks @Jim Lahey

This could be physiological insulin resistance perhaps. Not the same as pathological. I was the same with protein but I’m currently doing ok with it. The protein thing also seems to be multifactorial. Unused amino acids are either excreted in urine or reconstructed into glucose for fuel...and then reconverted into fat if the resulting glucose is also unneeded. But, I do not know which variables affect this waste/glucose ratio, and I suspect no one does. These systems are so bewilderingly complex that all we can do is piece together what we do know and draw our best conclusions.

I’m currently eating hypercarnivore (70%+ animal products) and I’m so far not experiencing the typical fasting glucose rises that I used to see with excess protein (4.8mmol/L this morning). I have been doing some reading that near zero carbohydrate eating changes our metabolic pathways for amino acids somewhat. I reckon I’m doing less than 10g carbohydrate at the moment. Although I am still eating a great deal of dietary fat which will help.

Anyways sorry for derailing somewhat...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: Tophat1900

Flora123

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,078
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
My understanding is that all the HOMA-R calc does is assess insulin sensitivity in that snapshot. It doesn’t give any info about what is happening at other times.

I would suggest you have a google on the way type 2s can lose their first phase insulin release (it is usually one of the first signs of growing glucose dysregulation). I believe that Jenny Ruhl has a section on that in www.bloodsugar101.com

Also, you may find that reading about the ‘last meal effect’ is interesting to you. Basically, if you don’t eat in a way that triggers insulin release then your body stops expecting that you will need it. When you DO drop some carbs down the shute, it can take a while for your body to gear up and generate enough insulin. This is why low carbers are encouraged to eat 150+ g of carbs a day for several days before a glucose tolerance test. Otherwise their bodies can’t handle it because they are still ‘geared down’.

I suspect you would get very different HOMA-R result it you took the first after months of Low Carbing, and the second after ‘Carbing up’ for a glucose tolerance test.

Hope that helps.

Thanks. I think it does. So much information to process!
 

poemagraphic

Well-Known Member
Messages
689
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
WIFI, Mobile phones. Smart metres... in fact anything 'smart'
Even with education, people like choice, which is why people still smoke.

I notice you are from a technical background, like me. I have an unproven theory that engineering types are almost robotic in the way we process and act on information, which may make compliance to a proven regime easier - just a theory.

That is very interesting... I am an all or nothing kind of guy really. When I undertake something, I always remember my father’s advice "If something is worth doing, it's worth doing well"

I found giving up smoking easy as well. When I was younger, I was a heavy smoker. I was training hard in a martial art and thought I really need to stop smoking, so I did.

I had half a packer left and just put them in the bin, that was almost fifty years ago.


Having a good incentive is always helpful… In that case a black belt. In this staying alive.

A great incentive here is going to your hospital appointment and taking note of all the people that literally ‘don’t have a leg to stand on’


Po
 
  • Like
Reactions: Oldvatr

Mbaker

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,339
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Available fast foods in Supermarkets
Uh... Because low GI doesn't make a difference to a T2. I'll have to process the carbs sooner or later anyway. Whether my pancreas has to do a mad dash for quick sugars, or a lengthy grind (and I do mean possible hours and hours) on Low GI... It's still not going to be very happy with me. My bloodsugars would still be up. (Besides, birthday cake was an example. Might as well have said pizza. I don't actually miss cake.)
Not arguing, but via low GI and exercise I went from 134 to 42/41, but this was hard work. I am of the opinion that if I had been low GI since I was a teenager I would not have contracted Type 2; obviously I can't prove this.
 

Mbaker

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,339
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Available fast foods in Supermarkets
I think we just get used to working within specifications, and this conditions us with a kind of clarity and purpose with attendant disciplines, I used to generate specifications and test plans for a living and ended up proofing for other companies to iron out any flaws and omissions in their work. It made me quite pedantic, so I suppose it shows in my postings here,
There might be something in my theory. My A levels were pure maths and statistics, I did technical drawing at "O" Level and my day job for 30 years has been IT, where I have also trained in PRINCE 2 - I do try not to fit the pipe and slippers stereotype, but it is interesting that I was rubbish at the creative stuff like Art, Drama and English. I did a course once that had 4 quadrants to describe the type of person you are, I ended up in the same box as Accountants, which isn't surprising.
 

Resurgam

Expert
Messages
9,868
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Ah - I dropped Hba1c 91 to 41 and avoided dense carbs from any source - it was embarrassingly easy.
 

Mbaker

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,339
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Available fast foods in Supermarkets
I have never seen anything NHS flagged as "cured", but in my own case my notes are flagged "Diabetes Resolved".

Now, there is usually a minor case of handbags at dawn on debates of Resmission/Resolved/Reversed, and I have no wish whatsoever to go there, but in my case, I feel resolved is a decent descriptor.
Quite right you are, I hope I am not developing a complication.
 

Tophat1900

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,407
Type of diabetes
Type 3c
Treatment type
Other
Dislikes
Uncooked bacon
This could be physiological insulin resistance perhaps. Not the same as pathological. I was the same with protein but I’m currently doing ok with it. The protein thing also seems to be multifactorial. Unused amino acids are either excreted in urine or reconstructed into glucose for fuel...and then reconverted into fat if the resulting glucose is also unneeded. But, I do not know which variables affect this waste/glucose ratio, and I suspect no one does. These systems are so bewilderingly complex that all we can do is piece together what we do know and draw our best conclusions.

I’m currently eating hypercarnivore (70%+ animal products) and I’m so far not experiencing the typical fasting glucose rises that I used to see with excess protein (4.8mmol/L this morning). I have been doing some reading that near zero carbohydrate eating changes our metabolic pathways for amino acids somewhat. I reckon I’m doing less than 10g carbohydrate at the moment. Although I am still eating a great deal of dietary fat which will help.

Anyways sorry for derailing somewhat...

I think this seems to contribute to enhanced control and could be a means of resolving T2 quicker, then low carbing perhaps. That's my experience so far, but that also depends on a number of individual factors. I'm doing a similar thing which is getting much closer to carnivore like eating and have noticed a dramatic change in things. Need to add a hole to my belt... because I'm constantly pulling my pants up...lol... but have made some good advances in strength training and gained weight. Plus a number of changes.
 

DCUKMod

Master
Staff Member
Messages
14,298
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Quite right you are, I hope I am not developing a complication.

To be honest, I doubt the NHS will ever have a descriptor of "Cured" for anything, because of the messaging it conveys. I certainly wasn't looking for oneupmanship. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: poemagraphic
M

Member496333

Guest
I think this seems to contribute to enhanced control and could be a means of resolving T2 quicker, then low carbing perhaps. That's my experience so far, but that also depends on a number of individual factors. I'm doing a similar thing which is getting much closer to carnivore like eating and have noticed a dramatic change in things. Need to add a hole to my belt... because I'm constantly pulling my pants up...lol... but have made some good advances in strength training and gained weight. Plus a number of changes.

My strength has also improved measurably since embarking on a more carnivorous way of life. My carbohydrate ingestion was already low, but I was consuming a fair amount of broccoli, cauliflower and spinach. Since dumping them and replacing with lots of organ meat, I’ve added extra weight to my dumbbells because they were becoming too easy to lift.
 
  • Like
Reactions: poemagraphic

Mbaker

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,339
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Available fast foods in Supermarkets
To be honest, I doubt the NHS will ever have a descriptor of "Cured" for anything, because of the messaging it conveys. I certainly wasn't looking for oneupmanship. :)
Fine, it is important to be accurate when referencing a point of fact, on one of my old posts I did have resolved in an answer, so I surprised myself not remembering exactly.
 

poemagraphic

Well-Known Member
Messages
689
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
WIFI, Mobile phones. Smart metres... in fact anything 'smart'
I think this seems to contribute to enhanced control and could be a means of resolving T2 quicker, then low carbing perhaps. That's my experience so far, but that also depends on a number of individual factors. I'm doing a similar thing which is getting much closer to carnivore like eating and have noticed a dramatic change in things. Need to add a hole to my belt... because I'm constantly pulling my pants up...lol... but have made some good advances in strength training and gained weight. Plus a number of changes.
I needed to buy some new trousers as mine just fell down when I started The HCLF diet at the start of April.

Mind I do think that not eating so much as a single crumb for a whole week before that helped a bit in the rotund department.
 

Oldvatr

Expert
Messages
8,470
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
I needed to buy some new trousers as mine just fell down when I started The HCLF diet at the start of April.

Mind I do think that not eating so much as a single crumb for a whole week before that helped a bit in the rotund department.
Did you mean HCLF? High Carb Low Fat ? If so then has it helped you?
 

poemagraphic

Well-Known Member
Messages
689
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
WIFI, Mobile phones. Smart metres... in fact anything 'smart'
Did you mean HCLF? High Carb Low Fat ? If so then has it helped you?
SILLY Po i will get the hang of this sooooon. LCHF I am currently at around 30carbs a day, somtimes I do go up to but never over 50g a day.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1spuds and Oldvatr

Mbaker

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,339
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Available fast foods in Supermarkets
Trouble is the batter is my favourite part! Shame that no-one has invented a low carb batter or that frying the flour would kill the carbs. (Like my little alliteration?)
This is just a will thing in my view. Wheat based batter is just an invention using an ultra-processed refined ingredient. I don't agree with ultra processing, but for arguments sake I make pancakes out of coconut flour or extra fine almond flour; if the world went low carb, some bright sparks would process these ingredients even more to make the taste more neutral to be more like plain white flour. Oreo biscuits had to have the palm oil replaced, it took a lot of testing to re-make these with another ingredient, without alienating the market.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1spuds

poemagraphic

Well-Known Member
Messages
689
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
WIFI, Mobile phones. Smart metres... in fact anything 'smart'
I was slightly amused to find that the diet which dropped my blood glucose and Hba1c to normal was exactly the same as I ate when doing Atkins to control my weight. That is the way I have to eat to feel well, to do anything else would not be very clever.
That is 100% what I found and 'still' think. It is a shame that I forgot for a while. Atkins was a great find for me, as was this site.
I just pray I don't forget again.
Po
 

JoKalsbeek

Expert
Messages
5,982
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Not arguing, but via low GI and exercise I went from 134 to 42/41, but this was hard work. I am of the opinion that if I had been low GI since I was a teenager I would not have contracted Type 2; obviously I can't prove this.
Oh, not seeing an arguement here. ;) I went to 33 on low carb/keto. Low GI I did try out right at the beginning, but it still messed my sugars up before I realised it was all carbs, fast and slow, that did me in. No idea whether low GI would've made a difference if I'd tried it sooner though...
 

Tophat1900

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,407
Type of diabetes
Type 3c
Treatment type
Other
Dislikes
Uncooked bacon
I needed to buy some new trousers as mine just fell down when I started The HCLF diet at the start of April.

Mind I do think that not eating so much as a single crumb for a whole week before that helped a bit in the rotund department.

It is one of the side effects of low carbing.... the key is to make sure this side effect doesn't hit you while walking down a busy street. :D
 

Oldvatr

Expert
Messages
8,470
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Oh, not seeing an arguement here. ;) I went to 33 on low carb/keto. Low GI I did try out right at the beginning, but it still messed my sugars up before I realised it was all carbs, fast and slow, that did me in. No idea whether low GI would've made a difference if I'd tried it sooner though...
I have recently been recovering my bgl by using low carb after release from hospital which had messed my bgl control summat chronic. I was seeing 5's and 4's, except for the morning, where I seemed to be experiencing Dawn Phenomenon because my fasting levels were significantly and consistently higher than my bedtime readings. My late night readings would be (per ex) 5.1, and my morning one would be around 8 or 9, then my midday level would be back to 5 or 6.

I finlly worked out what was happening, Because I am using a high dose of Gliclazide, I was being proactive at night by having a low GI snack at bedtime to make sure i did not hypo in my sleep, This is the cause of the morning rise.

I proved this by stopping the snack, and seeing that my morning fbgl came in almost identical to the bedtime reading, i,e, unchanged overnight. So it seems that the Glic has run out of steam by the time I went to bed. This gives an active period of around 4 or 5 hours for the med to be neutralised, I also proved it to be due to the Low GI snack by using a bedtime reading that was significantly higher than usual (due to bad food choice), and then eating a large dose of milk chocolate at bedtime. Lo and behold, my fbg the next morning was 5.1 again, following a bedtime reading in excess of 10 mmol/l. So this gives me evidence that sugar triggers my Stage 1 insulin response, and it works fine at night, It is NOT triggered by a low GI snack. The low GI carbs will push the bgl up overnight and not be recognised by my body as being unwanted so will give a raised bgl reading in the morning. My breakfast and morning meds will eventually deal with the low GI snack by midday, but I have a long acting glucose bump following low GI, as it creeps in under my radar,

In hospital I regularly dropped from a high bedtime reading to a low 5 ish fbgl in the morning, and I put this down to having a bedtime cocoa drink, with sweetners to help me sleep, This seems to have been enough to trigger a Stage 1 response. I am not sure if it is due to the Cocoa, or the milk, or the sweetners, since artificial sweetners are suspected of triggering Stage 1 responses on their own.

So maybe a way to deal with DP is to eat a sugary snack at night, which seems counterproductive but may restore the fasting levels. Its a cheat since all it does is push the sugar carbs into storage to lower the bgl, Alternativly make sure you do not eat low GI at bedtime.

This post does not address the OP regarding reversal etc, but I regard that argument to simply be semantics, and I do not feel inclined to join in that debate. However, the experiment to trigger Stage 1 response does go partway to demonstrating that my IR has been reduced, and that I may not be so far away from Diabetes Nirvana after all, I produce my own insulin and it does what it says on the tin!!!!!! Now that I know that the med only lasts a short while, I am also in a better place to reduce it ad absurdam and I do not need to fear nightime hypo's either.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1spuds

Caprock94

Well-Known Member
Messages
313
In my view you can’t eat “normally” again anymore than you ever could. You got diabetes once so you can eventually get it again. However, I’m one of those who believes that if a clinical diagnosis of diabetes cannot be made, and you are not medicated, then you don’t currently have diabetes. An intolerance to carbohydrate is not diabetes, and no one would question whether or not someone without diabetes should eat more carbohydrate just to be sure.

Diabetes (T2) is a symptom.

This is the way I look at it. My dad had been pre-diabetic for years. He crossed over slightly into the diabetic range, but ate better and lost some weight and returned to the pre-diabetic range. Still there. I would consider him pre-diabetic now (not a diabetic), but obviously that could change if he goes back to his old ways.