Should we ban butter?

[graham64]

Well I'll never know how my dear dad will take the news. He dies aged 66 following a heart attack and he put butter on steak, fish, vegetables etc. He rarely ate bread and certainly not rice or pasta. He ate new potatoes and grew them but he did not eat excessive amounts. He worked hard and was very active and slim.
Shows we are all different.

Yes Catherine it shows we are all different, my Dad passed away aged 91 he too was slim but had a sedentary lifestyle at home and work, he worked as a rep and spent most of his working life driving. Like Mum he ate a diet high in saturated fats, but that was not the cause of his death it was his lungs that gave up due to a lifetime of smoking not the fats in his diet.

Graham

 

[fergus]

I think clearviews put it very well.

In my opinion, there are so many flaws in both the science and the logic of the surgeons argument that it's difficult to know where to start in pulling it apart.
Fatty deposits around the heart, check. But singling sat. fat out as the chief agent is surely not possible given the variety of foods eaten let alone other lifestyle factors such as stress for example. It does seem he is taking it as a proven fact that saturated fat raising cholesterol is the root cause of CHD when that is still hypothetical and has proven impossible to confirm despite the huge efforts and expense incurred in trying to do so.
It looks like a very good example of a scientist seeing what he already believes is true, without actually approaching the issue with the open mind necessary for scientific progress.
Had he considered abnormal blood glucose and insulin levels for example - a much more plausible explanation that sat. fat and cholesterol. Had he looked at cortisol and dysfuntional HPA axis, which again actually fits the evidence much better that saturated fat. Does he think that, despite 30 years of health warnings about the possible dangers of sat fat and the advent of huge quantities of low fat foods, people are somehow eating more fat rather than less?
To be honest, I was much more impressed by the front page story in Monday's Guardian which reported that the WHO and UK agencies are attempting to ban the use of trans fats in our food. Now that, I think, we could all agree with.

All the best,

fergus

 

[Patch]

The Who should stick to what they're good at - making music.

My Generation is a classic! :wink:

 

[cugila]

Should we ban butter. No, of course not ! just credit people with a modicum of intelligence and let everybody make up their own mind. I love Butter and have it every day on something, be it Bread or a Cracker or two. The taste is great and it is a more natural product than all these manufactured spreads they advertise. I eat low fat.....doesn't give me any nightmares because I eat everything in moderation...... :wink:

Now, in my opinion there are many differing views about this and it is impossible to say with certainty that Fat is good or Fat is bad. I accept that. I wouldn't dream of pushing my views as the only view. Now I don't wish to pull anybody's opinion apart, that would be extremely rude ! So I will just give you my view for what it is worth.

Maybe the Surgeon had all the fat analysed, that's what sometimes happens. Think of a post mortem when they analyse the contents of somebody's stomach and can tell with certainty exactly what the person ate for dinner the day before ! Science and Pathology have been able to tell us so much that we never knew about before, getting better all the time.

So personally, I think the Surgeon may have had a valid opinion there. Despite what anybody else might think. So maybe his assertion as to what the stuff consisted of WAS correct. I have no idea. I wasn't there. I wouldn't dare to rubbish what he said without knowing ALL the facts. Forensic analysis is a fascinating subject, my niece is a Forensic Investigator who specialises in the subject.

I am sure also that the Patient had a detailed Medical and Lifestyle questionnaire done prior to any operation. I know that I did when I had my Triple By-Pass in 2004. They wanted to know everything about me and my diet etc etc. I think the only thing they never asked was my shoe size......., :lol:

That information, factual and first hand from the Patient would of course have been seen by the Cardiologist and his team, which number many people with different disciplines. Not just basic Cardiology. If the Patient told them he ate loads of Ghee, are we to call him a liar ? That is what he stated. Fact !

That was circumstantial, the analysis would have backed up that evidence, therefore the logical conclusion is that the fatty deposits were in fact caused by eating too much of a particular type of Fat. Was anybody here there, is there anybody here qualified in the analysis of samples from humans ? I would be interested to know ?

I think that this is a great example of investigative techniques and diligence together with an open mind coming to a logical conclusion. We really do have to examine all the facts, not just those that suit us. I mean this is one Patient, it is not the World population.

He, like me would have had every blood sample taken, every test under the Sun. They would have known everything about his body, metabolism and just what was wrong or not with him prior to his Operation. They would also know even more about him after the Op. So, it isn't as if they didn't have any data to go on.

I was always taught to deal in facts, evidence. Never to assume anything and if there was little or no supporting evidence to discount it . So on that basis I trust the Surgeon's judgement. seems a sound opinion to me. He is very highly qualified and studied many related subjects to get where he is, unlike most of us on this Forum. We after all are just Diabetics, not experts at all. Only in our own little World perhaps ? Just my own thoughts by the way ......

 

[hanadr]

Fergus
you are right on the quality of the evidence. The final test would be if that surgeon could state with 100% accuracy, that neither he nor any other cardiac surgeon had ever had to perform a bypass on a patient who has NEVER eaten butter.
I remember back to the proof of an infective agent, calle "Koch's Postulates". To prove that a particular agent is responsible for a set of symptoms,
1 You have to be able to isolate the agent from every case of the infection.
2 You have to cause the same symptoms if you introduce that agent into a healthy subject. and you must NEVER find that specific set of symptoms without the presence of the agent.
Butter isn't an "infective" agent, but if we modify the rules to "causal agent" and the "infection" into the "syndrome". I very much doubt if that surgeon's claim against butter would pass the test.
Hana

 

[sugarless sue]

As none of us know either the patient or the surgeon we could argue till the cows come home on this!!
Surely the key word here is evidence. The surgeon had it all not us. For us to suppose that he did not know is wrong.
If we eat any substance to excess then it will probably affect us in some way. In this case it was butter (ghee), it could just as well be protein,carbohydrate, salt etc in some other cases of disease.
Research is only truly accurate when both sides of the argument are read, digested and analysed, to only read one side of anything or to have incomplete data does not give a true picture of what has happened.

 

[cugila]

Hana.
I don't quite see what you are getting at here ? Koch's postulates were in 1867 a benchmark in judging whether there is a cause-and-effect relationship between a bacteria (or any other type of micro-organism) and a clinical disease.

Since when has Ghee been a micro-organism or a bacteria ?

Many researchers today believe that Koch’s rules are universal and correct despite the fact that a massive body of research has shown that the principles are outdated and can no longer be applied to a modern understanding of disease.

While Koch's postulates retain historical importance and continue to inform the approach to micro biologic diagnosis, the present scientific consensus view is that fulfilment of all four postulates is not strictly required to demonstrate causality.

As for evidence, you do not need to operate on a non butter eater to prove that the Fat found in the gentlemen operated on was full of butter (Ghee). The analysis at the time of that Fat would prove that. Pure and simple evidence. Not supposition !

 

[Bluenosesol]

If they ever have to do a post mortem on me, they may find my heart clogged with high fat Greek Yoghurt!.
Would still love an answer to my earlier question - Trigs 7.7 to 0.9, LDL down, HDL up, BP down, HBA1C 10.3 to 5.6, weight 17 stone 5 pounds to 13 stone 2 pounds and all done during an increased to high fat diet.
What's going on?

My tuppeneth - Of course we should not ban butter....but we do need quality public information to make informed choices. Comes back to my belief that a lot of our dietary choices are by default, reduced to calculated risks rather than informed choices. This debate proves it!.

All the best - Steve.

 

[cugila]

Would still love an answer to my earlier question - Trigs 7.7 to 0.9, LDL down, HDL up, BP down, HBA1C 10.3 to 5.6, weight 17 stone 5 pounds to 13 stone 2 pounds and all done during an increased to high fat diet.
What's going on?

All the best - Steve.

That's just it Steve....I tried low carbing and high fat. Didn't work for me. Numbers all went haywire !
Sick all the time, frequent visitor to the loo......

So I reverted back to low fat, low everything diet. The numbers then quickly tumbled and myself and GP are very happy with the results. I too have lost over 5 stone, down to 14st 6 lbs which as I am close to 6 ft suits me, although I plan to get down in the 13's ! I'm very pleased with that.

So you high fat, me low fat. Now the common denominator between the two of us is that we BOTH eat a reduced amount of Carbs, you probably less than me ? I personally don't see the need for ME to eat high fat. Still we are each of us different......

 

[noblehead]

My late father also had a triple by-pass op in the early 1990's, being only 58 years old, it came as quite a shock. I remember very well that he had to complete a questionnaire about his lifestyle and diet. As my dad was a hard working man, often working 7 days a week and very fit, he was puzzled when told of the news that he needed this operation, as he had no previous history. It was only when the cardio team at the Freeman hospital analysed his questionnaire that they give my father the cause.

Basically, his arteries were cloged with fatty deposits through eating a unhealthy diet. My mother would make my dad a fried breakfast at least 3 or 4 times a week, everything was fried, no grilling as my dad's preference was the frying pan. On top of this he would eat cheese most days, and his bread he would smother in fresh butter. What he was told by the cardiologist was, that he could have the op, but all would be in vein should he not change his diet. Needless to say, after the operation he ate healthy by cutting out most saturated fat, and lived another 10 years before he died.

Seeing my old man in intensive care afterwards made me realise that we are what we eat. I love butter, still use it but only in moderation. No one could ever convince me anything different, that saturared fats are a killer, and should only be consumed in small amounts. After all, I heard it from the horses mouth (well my dads cardiologist).

Regards

Nigel

 

[howie]

no

 

[Awkwardboy]

Butter must be outlawed immediately; it is utterly preposterous that in this day and age people are still allowed to take any responsibility for themselves.

 

[hanadr]

Just to clarify( no not Ghee :lol: )
Koch's Postulates are still the standard by which an organism is judged to be responsible for an infection.
I did write that if we substitute, "causal agent" for "infective agent" and" syndrome" for "infection", the test would still hold.
Hana

 

[cugila]

Just to clarify( no not Ghee :lol: )
Koch's Postulates are still the standard by which an organism is judged to be responsible for an infection.
I did write that if we substitute, "causal agent" for "infective agent" and" syndrome" for "infection", the test would still hold.
Hana

:lol:

So you are making it up as you go along.......OK. :wink: :lol:

 

[Romola]

Had a small amount of butter on Nimble wholemeal with a boiled egg for lunch.

That was probably the only butter I will eat for a week.

I really can't believe that I am dicing with death by doing so :roll:

 

[hanadr]

Absolutely not!
I was merely using Koch's Postulates as an example of a test for cause and effect, which is what they are and my second post merely re-itterates my first, which you seemed not to understand.
Read them both. they are the same.
Hana

 

[cugila]

Hana.......it WAS a Joke. Apparently you can make them.......not me ???

I understand what both you and I posted. YOU should read MY post ! You don't seem to understand what is there !

Now, can we get back to the original point, should we ban butter. If you want to discuss this further please pm me !

 

[noblehead]

Had a small amount of butter on Nimble wholemeal with a boiled egg for lunch.

That was probably the only butter I will eat for a week.

I really can't believe that I am dicing with death by doing so :roll:

Alert! Alert! Alert..............someone call the butter police! :lol:

Nigel

 

[ally5555]

I haven't read every post but the idea is ridiculous. I usually suggest to pts to keep to around 15g/day of what they prefer. My own preference , and yes I am a dietitian is for butter - I do not like all the chemicals, colourings and trans fats either! The research around trans fats was available 20 odd years ago and we knew then margarine was a major player!

However I often find that pts are using very large amounts and upwards of 60g is common.

Looking at saturated fat from junk is probably of more relevance!

 

[hanadr]

How about we ban margarine? As far as I can tell, it has nothing to recommend it, least of all taste.
Yeas ago, there was a ,probably libellous, rumour that Ecko margarine was made with what fats got caught in the machinery.
If margarine were any good, they'd not market it on having a taste like butter.
Has anyone seen that Ad for the VW golf, wheree a number of cars are compared in some way with "like a golf" and then they say why have ""like a Golf" have a Golf.
I CAN tell Stork, or whichever one it was, from butter, unless covered in fish paste( which is how they do the challenges) and I don't like it.
Hana
OH yes
they do add edxtrs vitamins to margarine. They are there naturally in butter that's made from grass fed milk.
My granny sold butter in her village and the surrounding one and used to colour the winter butter with juice from grated carrots.