Calories in vs. Calories out is apparently scientific fact!

[pdmjoker]

So in theory, I could live on streaky bacon and no matter how many calories I consumed eating the rashers, insulin wouldn't be triggered. If no insulin is triggered then no weight gain? Streaky bacon is more or less one part protein to two parts fat.

In addition to the other answers, I gather protein affects blood glucose about half (53%) as much as carbs, so excess protein can increase insulin levels sufficiently to prevent weight loss.
Also, note from this graphic how long after eating the effect occurs:

 

[lucylocket61]

All I know is that I am eating far more calories than I did in all my pre-diagnosis dieting days, and I haven't put on any weight since I began lower carbing.

 

[HSSS]

All I know is that I am eating far more calories than I did in all my pre-diagnosis dieting days, and I haven't put on any weight since I began lower carbing.

I actively ate more calories and still lost weight at diagnosis and starting low carb.

 

[Resurgam]

In my 20s was always being nagged at to exercise (as though I didn't cycle into work and back every day) but I found that when on a low calorie high carb diet I had to leave half an hour earlier in the morning and stop twice as my heart was pounding, and going home the same, and I would often fall asleep and burn dinner. It was not that I was unfit - two days eating normally (for me) and I would be pedalling along easily again. Too many carbs simply prevented me from accessing energy reserves. When I said 'its the diet' I was not believed, but I was happy on 50 gm of carbs a day, which was always regarded as impossible, far too low.

 

[JenniferM55]

Have you not heard of this guy?

https://www.carnivorecast.com/podcast/baconexperiment

No I'd not heard of this guy! Just listened to his interview, and it's fascinating. Thank you for the head's up.

 

[Mbaker]

I think this is one of the best threads recently. There's the view and practical experience that CICO worked for one of the contributors, then there are others who would swear by the hormone influence. Should weight loss / stability be the only metric which counts, or should downlevel biomarkers be given more prominence.

CICO can be used as a get out of jail card for fake food as it allows for example the cola companies to say our calories are no different to real food, so long as you either match or are in a deficit (summarising my interpretation of Robert Lustig's work). For the "look" this can work i.e. you can be skinny or especially the young, a body building physique can be attained. This method for me is no different to a world class athlete who has built their success on CICO fast foods and ends up pre-diabetic. Obvious issues can be high circulating insulin and higher glucose in the athletic, and or visceral fat, low HDL, higher CRP and higher trigs in the more sedentary - but because the person is perhaps skinny, health is assumed. I think CICO is fraudulent for those reasons, as it covers issues, that if explained many would find unacceptable.

 

[pdmjoker]

I think this is one of the best threads recently. There's the view and practical experience that CICO worked for one of the contributors, then there are others who would swear by the hormone influence.

Yes, good thread. I think the point of this thread is that the claim that CICO adequately and completely explains weight loss is untrue: the real situation is more subtle than that.

Surely no one would claim the amount they eat is irrelevant to their weight, but the composition of what they eat, and consequently the way their unique body responds to it, is a factor too significant to ignore. Over simplifying things to CICO is the error... Agree?

 

[pdmjoker]

Pleased we've now got the internet and can communicate widely.

Reminds me of a meme where a doctor is saying "I remember when patients used to hang on my every word. That wretched Internet has destroyed the doctor/patient relationship!"

 

[Oldvatr]

No. Dietary fat can be stored as body fat without a requirement for insulin. Insulin is needed to make fat from glucose derived from dietary carbohydrate, unused amino acids (protein) or both. But...your appetite is far more likely to prevent you overeating the fat and protein than it would carbohydrate.

This study discusses the lipid overdose hypothesis. As a hypo it is not proven. The paper also discusses the pathways used by which insulin controls fat metabolism.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4587882/

If insulin was not needed for fat metabolism and use, then T1D etc should have been able to survive long term on a carnivore diet.

 

[Oldvatr]

Here on this Forum we are open to different diet plans, and recognize that some diets based on Newcastle or the 800 Blood Sugar diets as being valid tools that can be used to control a wayward metabolism. We are led to believe that these CICO type diets can lead to remission of T2D, but those skeptics of us here know that there are reports from members that the devil creeps back after a while.
BUT-
In NICE Land and NHS Land these diets are PROOF that CICO is the answer, (Or Bariatric Surgery)

Dr Unwin was also following the CICO plan some years back and his original trials with his practice used CICO since he was able to massage the nutritionists on board in support and interpret NICE accordingly without waking the dragons up. I remember the week when he and I both agreed to go LCHF instead. (He was an active member on the Forum at the time)

 

[Mbaker]

Yes, good thread. I think the point of this thread is that the claim that CICO adequately and completely explains weight loss is untrue: the real situation is more subtle than that.

Surely no one would claim the amount they eat is irrelevant to their weight, but the composition of what they eat, and consequently the way their unique body responds to it, is a factor too significant to ignore. Over simplifying things to CICO is the error... Agree?

I can agree with your sentiment. I am not an expert and it is clear that CICO is part of the variable equation; but even the word equation is wrong, as again this would be repeatable and exact. CICO is no different to investing on the stock exchange for the majority. People have to decide what works for them, knowledge is key.

On my walk with resistance exercise after my meal, I was listening to Gary Taubes and Jason Fung, perhaps worth a listen as they express some views on topic.

 

[EmmaorEva]

The word choice is based on an overwhelming opinion of CICO dieters (across the web) that something must be wrong with you if you're not losing weight e.g. you're lying about what you eat or unable to accurately measure your intake.

I can agree with your sentiment. I am not an expert and it is clear that CICO is part of the variable equation; but even the word equation is wrong, as again this would be repeatable and exact. CICO is no different to investing on the stock exchange for the majority. People have to decide what works for them, knowledge is key.

On my walk with resistance exercise after my meal, I was listening to Gary Taubes and Jason Fung, perhaps worth a listen as they express some views on topic.

 

[ianf0ster]

The word choice is based on an overwhelming opinion of CICO dieters (across the web) that something must be wrong with you if you're not losing weight e.g. you're lying about what you eat or unable to accurately measure your intake.

Since using a Low Calorie diet automatically reduces your resting metabolic rate (the biggest consumption of calories in the body), anybody actually losing weight that way has to reduce calories even more to compensate for that.
Then that extra calorie restriction causes the resting metabolic rate to drop further. and around it goes.

It is like a young puppy chasing its tail !

 

[NicoleC1971]

Out of curiosity I have a question for Type 1's who have been through that stage before diagnosis where they are losing weight....
Did you eat more trying to maintain your weight or did you lose your appetite and find that you didn't want to eat as much as usual?

For me I did not eat more but it would not mattered if I had. The foods I crave when I am high are the foods that are toxic because there is insufficient insulin to use that food i.e. high carb. If you look at photos of kids with type 1 prior to 1922 it is evident that they are starving despite eating sufficient calories.
As for CICO it isn't about denying the laws of physics but just understanding that we are not a closed system so the law tells us little about the biological reality of how fat is stored or released. The article is from a course I've studied and I'd say their viewpoint is more agnostic than the OP implies.

 

[zand]

Since using a Low Calorie diet automatically reduces your resting metabolic rate (the biggest consumption of calories in the body), anybody actually losing weight that way has to reduce calories even more to compensate for that.
Then that extra calorie restriction causes the resting metabolic rate to drop further. and around it goes.

It is like a young puppy chasing its tail !

...and you can't keep reducing calories forever. You can't live on 0 calories for long, but you can live on 0g carbs for as long as you want to do so.

 

[DJC3]

I can agree with your sentiment. I am not an expert and it is clear that CICO is part of the variable equation; but even the word equation is wrong, as again this would be repeatable and exact. CICO is no different to investing on the stock exchange for the majority. People have to decide what works for them, knowledge is key.

On my walk with resistance exercise after my meal, I was listening to Gary Taubes and Jason Fung, perhaps worth a listen as they express some views on topic.

Thanks for posting this - as you say, interesting and on topic. From a personal point of view the discussion on insulin and cancer was fascinating and I’m looking forward to JFs new book The Cancer Code.

 

[JenniferM55]

Since using a Low Calorie diet automatically reduces your resting metabolic rate (the biggest consumption of calories in the body), anybody actually losing weight that way has to reduce calories even more to compensate for that.
Then that extra calorie restriction causes the resting metabolic rate to drop further. and around it goes.

It is like a young puppy chasing its tail !

Saw this brilliant vid of Ben Bickman's presentation. Just wish I had this info 50 years ago!

A lot of the info is a fair bit over my head, but what I took from it...

a) There's a balance between insulin and ketones (which is obvious when I think about it), ketones suppress insulin, and vice versa.

b) Ketones help the mitochondria in fat cells 'turn into a furnace', powering the metabolic rate.

c) We've got White fat cells and Brown fat cells, the brown cells gear up our metabolic rate especially when a good supply ketones are involved. Ketones have the ability to turn white fat cells into brown fat cells, raising the metabolic rate.

Going as low carb as possible to keep those ketones going, suppressing insulin, makes so much sense.