Carbohydrates

borofergie

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bonnynemia said:
Yes, I definitely mean grains. After more than 21 years of eating lots and lots of grains, I always get scary high fasting and 2-hour after-meal blood sugar readings. To me, it looks like that the conventional wisdom that high-carb meals are bad for type 2s does not apply to me now and maybe forever.

Have you known another type 2 who has been doing the opposite of what I have been doing insofar as foods are concerned who has done as well as, or better than, I have? If you do, please tell him that I want to compare notes with him.

Bonny, I agree with your exercise plus low-carb, and especially low-grain approach 100%

I am aware of several diabetics that claim to do well on low-GI and portion control approaches, but I'm not aware of any diabetic that has good control on a "high-carbohydrate" diet, without insulin.

I'm a low-carb runner, I eat nothing that is derived from grains, apart from the very occaisional beer. My HbA1c is 4.9%
 

bonnynemia

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borofergie said:
bonnynemia said:
Yes, I definitely mean grains. After more than 21 years of eating lots and lots of grains, I always get scary high fasting and 2-hour after-meal blood sugar readings. To me, it looks like that the conventional wisdom that high-carb meals are bad for type 2s does not apply to me now and maybe forever.

Have you known another type 2 who has been doing the opposite of what I have been doing insofar as foods are concerned who has done as well as, or better than, I have? If you do, please tell him that I want to compare notes with him.

Bonny, I agree with your exercise plus low-carb, and especially low-grain approach 100%

I am aware of several diabetics that claim to do well on low-GI and portion control approaches, but I'm not aware of any diabetic that has good control on a "high-carbohydrate" diet, without insulin.

I'm a low-carb runner, I eat nothing that is derived from grains, apart from the very occaisional beer. My HbA1c is 4.9%

Borofergie,

Thank you very much for your reply.

You surely prove my point that all type 2s have the power and ability to discover their own special, unique, effective, safe, lasting, and inexpensive way to properly manage their diabetes.

Enjoy life always!!!

Bonny Damocles
 

AnnieT

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Oh wow - I am so pleased that I came on here. I am very newly diagnosed, in tears a lot and confused! It seems I am normal!! Anyway I have also been confused about the carb thing, because I see an endocrinologist for another condition so I called him when I was diagnosed and he told me to eat a low carb diet (I am also overweight) and then I saw the diabetic nurse and she said I must eat carbs at every meal. I went from knowing what I needed to do to being completely confused. I was also told I didn't need a testing kit, but I find that just so difficult because I just can't learn what is good and what is bad. Any advice and support would be appreciated, I am feeling pretty alone
 

Sid Bonkers

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Hi Annie and welcome to the forum, as you have access to an endo I would advice that you listen to him/her as a practice nurse has very limited knowledge of diabetes and usually runs lots of other clinics as well as the diabetes clinic, I'm sure they mean well and some will be highly qualified of that I am sure but generally they are a Jack of all trades.

I eat carbs with every meal but I also low carb, so advise to eat carbs with every meal is flawed and often misunderstood both by patients and practice nurses as well. Theres a big difference between eating a plate full of mashed potato and eating 2 or 3 new potatoes, both are carbs so its all in the amounts or portions of carbs that you eat.

So my advice would be stick with your endos advice as they know a lot more than a practice nurse or me :D
 

hanadr

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is your nurse a Diabetes Specialist Nurse or a Practice Nurse. My nurse, who approves of everything I do is a Practice Nurse. She hasn't been brainwashed about eating carbs at every MEAL. Our actual daily requirement for dietary cqarbohydrates is... ZERO.
Your nurse might think differently if she were at risk of complicatrions and side effects herself. learning by using your meter is one of the best things you can do for yourself.
I don't understand their being against testing, especially as most of us fund our own strips and hence cost the NHS NOTHING!!
Hana
 

AnnieT

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I think (?) she's just a practice nurse but I'm not certain. And I agree I trust the endo doc much more, but it was just so confusing to then be told something else entirely.
Can I buy a meter over the counter?
 

Daibell

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Hi Annie. As everyone else has said, your Endo is correct. Your nurse is like so many who have been 'fed' total nonsense within the NHS and broader community when it comes to diabetes and carbs. As diabetes is a condition whereby your body can't process carbs properly then to tell you to have them with every meal is particularly stupid. It's like telling a coeliac to have wheat-based bakery products all the time. You can buy one of many meter brands in any chemist for around £25. The test strips aren't cheap but you can buy them on the web and often from online chemists who won't charge VAT (diabetes patients don't pay VAT on things related to their condition). The SD Codefree from Amazon uses low-cost strips but some say the meter isn't quite as accurate as those from Lifescan, Bayer, Abbott etc. If you phone one of the big brands they will normally send you a meter free.
 

Yorksman

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The advice given by DNs can often be very poorly expressed. For example one poster on this forum reported that she was told to 'eat lots of carbs' but she was also told to try to keep to 1200 Kcal per day.

1200 Kcal per day will result in weight loss whereas eating lots of carbs could result in weight gain, if unrestricted in quantity. What I suspect the DN meant was keep to 1200 Kcal per day and make sure there are carbs within that 1200. If the carbs are whole grains, as opposed to three mars bars per day, it would be a good enough diet for many people.
 

vonbon1

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Hi Annie, I was diagnosed Type 2 just 6 weeks ago, I was told the same thing about eating carbs every meal by practice nurse. by the end of the 1st week I felt unwell, I asked my Gp about a monitor, he informed me it was the nurses decision but he spoke to her. Due to other health issues Gp agreed with me that it would make things easier for me. nurse still said no untill I explained it myself, she eventually relented and gave me a monitor advising me that I would only get 1 lot of test strips and lancets.

So 4 weeks on low carb diet, I have lost 20lbs and my BG is around 5s-7s.
I still have small bowl cornflakes for breakfast. a wholemeal sandwich for lunch, lots of meat & salad. plenty of meat & veggies for dinner.
It can be a little hard going at times and as a fussy eater variety for me is a big problem but I have stuck at it and the results speak for themselves.

Hope this helps in some small way
Vonbon
 

Superchip

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Her is a report by Dr Briffa, sorry it's a bit long....

Diabetic transforms his health with a low-carb diet, and his doctor urges him to eat more carbs
By Dr John Briffa on 2 October 2012 in Diabetes/Metabolic Syndrome, Food and Medical Politics, Low-Carbohydrate, Men's Health

I got an interesting email over the weekend from a 56-year-old type 2 diabetic. He was diagnosed at age 42. He initially managed this as he was advised: with a high carbohydrate, low fat diet. He moved to ‘healthy’ grains that were ‘less refined’ and ate sourdough bread. In his own words: “And despite all of this, I saw no improvement, in fact I gained weight to around 90 kg before changing my diet at the start of the year.” The man in question ended up reading the book Primal Body, Primal Mind by Nora T Gedaudas after hearing her featured on a podcast.

After reading Nora’s book, he followed most of her advice and then slowly extricated himself from the wheat and grain-dominated foods that he “was supposed to eat to obtain energy and remain healthy.” He started eating animal fats for the first time in years and gave up alcohol. Here’s his email to me:

I had my 6 monthly diabetes check-up last Wednesday. The diabetes consultant was really happy with all of my figures on cholesterol, triglycerides, blood pressure, weight (I’ve lost another 4 kg since February without really trying), kidney and liver function are excellent – in fact he was really impressed and asked me what I was doing to get these improvements.

Simple, I said, I’ve stopped eating wheat in all its forms and grains in general, I avoid rice and all potato products. I eat animal fat and the only oil that I use is extra virgin olive oil. Breakfast is typically a one-egg omelette and with a small amount of bacon, smoked salmon or Parma ham. I have spinach or other leafy greens and tomatoes. Lunch is often not taken as I do not feel hungry until 6.00 pm when I have my evening meal. Another small portion of meat and plenty of veggies. The only fruit that I have are a few blueberries, wild strawberries (when they are available) and raspberries – and I mean a few.

I sleep better than ever, don’t feel tired and have lost weight. I really ought to exercise though, that is the only flaw in my regime.

“No, you MUST eat some carbohydrates” he said.

“I do, I told you, I eat plenty of vegetables.” I said.

“No, no, starchy carbohydrates, you NEED them”

“Why do I NEED them?”

“For energy, your body needs carbohydrates for energy” came his concerned reply.

“How do you think that I’ve managed to survive since you last saw me then? And, you told me how pleased you were with all of my readings – doesn’t that suggest that I’m doing fine without refined, starchy carbohydrates?”

He had no reply other than to repeat to me that I MUST eat carbohydrates for energy.

I urged him to read Primal Body, Primal Mind by Nora T Gedgaudas and made him write it down. I could see that he wasn’t convinced. So, I told him that the ******** that he’d been taught by the food industry-research funded nonsense that the Government taught him is causing all of the major health problems that he has to deal with every day.

I also said that I throw a fat-fuelled log onto the fire in the morning rather than the carbohydrate kindling throughout the day to keep me provided with energy and avoid the feeling of hunger. Again, nothing seemed to penetrate that simple head of his; it was full of the guff that he’d been taught not to question.

I decided to post this story because it represents to me many facets of a growing theme in the interactions patients have with their health and healthcare professionals. This is the sort of scenario I’m talking about (I’m using diabetes as an example, but the themes can apply to lots of conditions):

1. someone gets diagnosed with diabetes and takes conventional advice to eat a high-carbohydrate, low fat diet.

2. the diabetic finds it difficult to control blood sugar levels effectively, even with sometimes multiple medications.

3. the diabetic starts reading information on the internet and in books which explains why a high-carbohydrate diet is (generally) a disaster for diabetics and what works better (a diet richer in fat and adequate protein).

4. the diabetic decides to take matters into their own hands, changes their diet, and their blood sugar control and general health improve through the roof.

5. when their doctor finds out that their patient is eating a ‘fad’, ‘low-carb’ or ‘Atkins’ diet, they either elect not to engage with this, or positively dissuade the diabetic from taking this approach.

In this particular case, the doctor shows a mind-numbing ignorance about basic physiology (assuming he’s been quoted correctly): No-one needs to eat starchy carbohydrate (or any carbohydrate) for energy. For a start, fat is a suitable fuel for the body. Plus, sugar can be made from other dietary elements (e.g. protein) in the liver.

I fear that we doctors are going to have to ‘get with the programme’ by ensuring we are better educated about the impact of nutrition on health. And another thing we could do better, I think, is not to dismiss our patients who have been motivated enough to educate and help themselves, and in so doing have experienced significant improvements in their health and wellbeing. Isn’t it by listening to patients that we doctors get to know what works and what doesn’t? And won’t this information and experience be invaluable to us when we come to advise other patients?

The age of the internet means patients can quite easily know much more about their health and health management than their doctors. Rather than dismiss what they have discovered, I suggest we doctors embrace these experiences and learn from them. That is, of course, if we care about our patients getting the best advice and support possible.
 

GraceK

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My DN does listen to me when I describe that I'm feeling better, not 100%, but a lot better. She doesn't ask what I eat, she doesn't advise me what to eat, nor does she push the statins at me, she simply says "Your liver readings are a bit high", and that's it basically. Even when she weighs me, she doesn't preach to me about losing weight, she simply tells me what my weight is and leaves it at that.

Then as I have my hand on the door handle to leave she'll say "Oh by the way, you're due a smear test you know?" And I say "I'm under the hospital for all that, got enough going on ... leave me be. I'm happy with things as they are." And she just laughs.

I like her attitude although at first I wasn't keen on her, but after seeing her a few times I think she's got it right. She doesn't miss a trick, but she gives the patient credit for having their own mind and making their own decisions.

On the matter of diet, I was doing really well on LCHF, although not losing the weight that others seem to lose on it and I started sneaking bread and the odd cream scone and digestive biscuit back into my diet and then they became 'regulars' in my shopping basket again, which I'd vowed not to allow to happen.

Did I notice the difference? Yep I did. Back came the growling tummy, wind, bloating, feelings of lethargy and the wheeziness, although not to the degree I had when I ate all those things regularly. I tried the Burgen soya bread with chia and sunflower and I felt like I'd eaten a brick after just half a slice.

So, I definitely think I MUST stay off the flour and grains and I did manage it for a full 6 months and felt wonderful. So I'm back on the wagon now.

Thanks for the reminder about Primal Body, Primal Mind ... I'm sending off for a copy today. :)
 

Superchip

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Hello Grace hope you are well !

I had my 6 month MOT at Papworth last Monday ( 19 years post transplant ) All is good ! Hoozah !

All booked up now for Poland, can't wait !

Chips
 

Yorksman

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Carbs from grains always did form part of our diet, even before the introduction of farming in the neolithic, that's how people came up with the idea of, rather than gathering grains, to grow them in one place. However, gathering grains was only one part of a hunter gatherer lifestyle, which was essentially opportunistic, eat what you come across. What we might refer to now as a 'balanced diet'. Humans don't 'need' grains, many societies don't grow them such as those in the rain forest or the arctic, but they are adapted to their own diets as we are adapted to ours. The problem in the industrialised west appears to be mainly from the type of wheat that we have developed which differs greatly from the origininal types. In addition, milling using steel rollers destroys much of the benefit of the gained flour. The milling is too fast and too hot.

A simple example of how using steel rollers for speed destroys the food can be seen in mustard. Originally when mustard seeds were crushed, the mustard sauce was runny. In the middle ages when it was milled slowly using granite, slowly, mustard grains would produce a sauce which became thick. Now that steel rollers are used, to produce greater quantities faster, the heat generated destroys the parts of the mustard which give it its sharp taste. That has to be added back in and the agent chosen to do this is radish. That sharp hit that you get at the top of your nose is radish, not mustard. You don't get it with stone ground mustard. It is an example of how modern production methods alter the foods that we eat.