Communicating About Carbs (the trials and tribulations of)

[KennyA]

Oh yes, sweet lemon sauce.

If I was going to eat chips, I'd want twice cooked chips fried in lard, thanks. No point sinning and not enjoying it.

You know, I asked for cheese. And cream for the after-dinner coffee. But no cheese or cream appeared. I suspect that the chef was probably fully aware of the difference between fat and carb, but the message communicated to the chef about what i would eat was definitely along the lo-fat line.

 

[AloeSvea]

Also, just a note on the convenience factor. This is also 'a thing'. (In this regard - the wonders of a pre-prepared cheese platter I can pick up from the supermarket on the way to a shared meal dinner party.)

I spend so much of my life cooking in kitchens I am very grateful for respite in that department! One of the reasons I am in the T2D predicament I am in is I loved convenience foods in my prior to diagnosis life. Because I do not enjoy cooking. I always liked baking, but not cooking meals cooking. I do not have to look too deeply to understand the lure of Ultra Processed Food. If I was rich I would have a cook (oh and absolutely someone to do the dishes! Scullery maids they used to be called but I can't imagine such a thing these days ).

I adore the Keto/LCHF products department of the high-end supemarket in the big city (Aotearoa really only has one big city) I buy Keto products from. I don't adore paying for it - but hey! I am hugely grateful for the fact it exists now, when 10 years ago it didn't.

 

[AloeSvea]

Oh yes, sweet lemon sauce.

If I was going to eat chips, I'd want twice cooked chips fried in lard, thanks. No point sinning and not enjoying it.

You know, I asked for cheese. And cream for the after-dinner coffee. But no cheese or cream appeared. I suspect that the chef was probably fully aware of the difference between fat and carb, but the message communicated to the chef about what i would eat was definitely along the lo-fat line.

Big lol from me re sweet lemon sauce! Goodness gracious.

And totally agree re the chips fried in lard - they were great back in the day weren't they?!

That low-fat line has a lot of culinary-evil to answer to! That's for sure.

This is a bit naughty of me, but were the low-fatters kind of sharing a body fat storage issue? This is one of the weirdest cognitive dissonance factors for me (others' cognitive dissonance - not mine!) is that I am normal weighted on LCHF, and often the low-fat advocats having these weird (to me) exchanges about "bad saturated fat" with truckloads of sugar and carbs, when they are not normal weighted, packing on more than a bit of body fat way more often than not. Including the chef probably? As a species we are really good at doing denial, and there is an argument that one of the reasons we have been so successful as a species is because we are so good at denial, but really....

 

[KennyA]

I honestly think it's difficult for people when the absolute constant message since around 1980 through official sources, media sources, health sources, government sources has been to reduce fat (particularly saturated fat) in the diet. Consumption of saturated fat has plummeted at the same time as levels of obesity have risen, and T2 diabetes has pretty much appeared from nowhere in the general population.

The messaging has been extremely effective, and people simply do not take in that the evidence of their own eyes contradicts what they've been told.

 

[AloeSvea]

Yes indeed.

Whilst pottering around in the kitchen making my variety of cheeses melted on fried salami for brunch (inspired by above), I was thinking about the obvious extension of communicating about carbs is, yes, dealing with the misinformation of the Low-fat is best mantra, whilst raising the sugar and additives and carb levels of ordinary foods hugely. The ultimate trial and tribulation we with rooted blood glucose systems are paying a high price for, for sure.

I deal with anxiety and sleep issues by listening to a LOT of stand-up comedy on youtube. One of my fave's Ranaan Hershberg does a great stand-up routine about "it turns out that misinformation beats no information every time". (Hope I have remembered that punchline properly.) He was joking about climate change convos, but that can certainly be applied to communicating about carbs (and the dietary fat heart disease hypothesis).

Misinformation beats no information. Good thing we are providing the good information. (Yay DCUK!)

(for me it began in late 70s, when McGovern did his thing in the USA and it extended to Aotearoa/NZ - I gave up eggs for breakfast and replaced with muesli - argh!)

 

[MrsA2]

I honestly think it's difficult for people when the absolute constant message since around 1980 through official sources, media sources, health sources, government sources has been to reduce fat (particularly saturated fat) in the diet. Consumption of saturated fat has plummeted at the same time as levels of obesity have risen, and T2 diabetes has pretty much appeared from nowhere in the general population.

The messaging has been extremely effective, and people simply do not take in that the evidence of their own eyes contradicts what they've been told.

And, sadly, its not only to the end public either .
I was researching migraines last night and the 2 UK organisations both recommend a diet with plenty of carbs in BUT I can find NO published papers to support this in the case of causing migraines. Seems lifted straight from low fat/eatwell plate with out any specific research, even though its a condition known to be trigger by some foods.

 

[AloeSvea]

Well, it was a fascinating national holiday/new guests in the country experience for me, when it comes to being a Low Carb Healthy Fat (LCHF) household, and sharing food and drink. And definitely, it turned out, when it comes to talking all that we discussed above with a newish person (friend of a friend).

As I mentioned above, the system I have done in the past ten years has worked well - explain the LCHF household thing, my health and T2D thing, tell folks to bring their own snacks, and what they like to drink, and explain what I will cook and provide for, and say we will decide together on the rest.

Usually folks bring lots of snacks and sweet drinks, and I don't have anyone going through sugar withdrawal in the house . Which is good! (four days and three nights is enough for some withdrawal I believe).

My galpal doesn't eat added sugar, but my guess is her friend does (the norm after all), so she felt compelled to go along with the no added sugar ride. Ouch!

And, yeah, there was a lot of confusion from both my guests, still, about the difference between low carb and low calorie.

My new guest told me I shouldn't be drinking alcohol with my T2 (goodness gracious!!!), so I explained very patiently the difference between energy from alcohol and energy from carbs. (Of course I drink very low or zero carb alcoholic bevvies.)

I explained the diet-heart hypothesis and why I thought it was wrong when the new guest showed images of her slim 84 year old friend's hardened artery medical-imaging, when we alone together at a cafe, as evidence of the error of my eating ways. (Again - I would find it hard to make this up!). I told her alas, I would be very lucky indeed to get to 84, hardened arteries or nae. But that didn't stop her. I told her it was actually my kidneys I most had to watch out for, as I did not have blood pressure or CVD issues, touch wood, yet at least, due to my previous emphasis on exercise before disability, and still keeping up with strength resistance training, and boy did her eyes glaze over! (I'm not surprised! Who cares about details like that except me and my loved ones?)

I also discussed heart foundation funding when she also texted me what the american heart foundation says about eating meat and saturated fat. (keep it lean message. Processed meat is cancer causing.) And I suggested she read what the WHO and scienfitic studies actually says about the evidence that meat eating is contrary to a healthy diet for our species. (As in thin on the ground!) (Also - re processed meat actually.)

Anyway. It was pretty full on.

I think she 'd gone into sugar withdrawal after three days for sure, and was in shock and p.o-ed about the whole LCHF thing, and finding out she was like all of us, and prone to being addicted to the stuff, and she hadn't known before.

I also think there was a bit of wanting the lowering carbs and raising protein and fats to be normal weighted message I was saying about myself to be wrong. Who wants to give up all those lovely yummy carbs? Unless metabolically sick. After all! I quite understand. She had a lot of body fat, particulalry on her belly, and was also being pretty mean about her fat sister, who, it turned out, has Type 2 too. Oh dear! (Risk factor for her of course, as risk is double the 'normal' population.) So she could be scared. And again, not wanting the old messaging about eating animal fat and still going strong, to be wrong.

And - my normal weighted body and food and drink was something to argue against? yes. Apparently. Oh dear! Not pleasant.

Don't we live in interesting times?! Re metabolic ill/health and maintaining normal weight, and food and drink....

 

[Outlier]

Awarded you a gold cup for your reactions/non-reactions and positivity, your intellectual engagement in the face of.....let's say non-intellectual engagement, and most of all for your self-control.

 

[AloeSvea]

Awww - big ty @Outlier. Much appreciated.

Having talked about it and heard others POVs in here previously really helped.

 

[Resurgam]

I once requested a low carb meal and was brought an entirely fat free meal of chicken fillet and steamed veges, and I didn't eat any of it.
The provider was smirking as they set it down, and then looked expectant. I thanked them, explained why it was not suitable, and went on not eating it, explaining that I'd eat when I reached home.
There was a bit of discussion and I was delighted when someone asked how long people had been eating 'like that' - after I mentioned Atkins.
I managed to keep my face straight and told them about 2.6 million years, but it depends on the definition of people.

 

[AloeSvea]

(These trophies are great!)

Yes indeedy @Resurgam.

I'm due to have surgery some time this year for my bung foot (will always be lame now, but I'm going for pain-free or reduced). So I've been thinking already about what to do about hospital food. I don't have folks around in the vicinity of the hospital to bring me LCHF food, so I have decided to no-food fast during my stay there, and have read of others in this forum who have done that. So nice to have pre-knowledge of that to get me through. Because I will surely have to explain it.

The raising healthy fat levels with lowering carbs does seem to be a real sticking point of argument, and anguish, perhaps? I feel for the cognitive dissonance going wild from folks who continue to buy the low fat message, in the face of its collosal failure to prevent CVD and T2D. I usually do the three macronutrient approach, and explain that we need to get fuel from food, and explain if you're not getting it from carbs, it needs, must, come from protein which comes 'pre-packaged by nature' - with fat, for satiety. (This excludes living on lettuce!) And we must actually, eat fat to be healthy. I like your response 100%

I'm still getting texts from my friend's friend about the evils of eating saturated fat, alas. (What a price to pay for my hospitality! Ouch!) (I do love the chilly bin she bought me as a gift though! I guess I just need to focus on that.) I texted back: 'You are a great gal, but we should not be engaging on this topic. We can just agree to disagree on the topic of my way of eating. I wish you the best with a low fat way of eating.'

Yeah, I think she is actually hugely triggered, and in fear of getting what at this stage of her life will most likely be mild age-relatied (type two) diabetes, because she is very likely to have metabolic syndrome, and her docs may have told this to her. Not to cut down on carbs, but to cut down on saturated fat. (And her sister has T2D.) We live in messed up times when it comes to dominant messages about food.

 

[Antje77]

I'm due to have surgery some time this year for my bung foot (will always be lame now, but I'm going for pain-free or reduced). So I've been thinking already about what to do about hospital food. I don't have folks around in the vicinity of the hospital to bring me LCHF food, so I have decided to no-food fast during my stay there

Fine if a short stay, but if it's a longer stay (or a possibility of a longer stay), why not bring some foods with you?
Nuts, pork scratchings, dried salami type sausages don't need refrigerating. They may even have a fridge and a microwave extending your possibilities.

 

[KennyA]

(These trophies are great!)

Yes indeedy @Resurgam.

I'm due to have surgery some time this year for my bung foot (will always be lame now, but I'm going for pain-free or reduced). So I've been thinking already about what to do about hospital food. I don't have folks around in the vicinity of the hospital to bring me LCHF food, so I have decided to no-food fast during my stay there, and have read of others in this forum who have done that. So nice to have pre-knowledge of that to get me through. Because I will surely have to explain it.

The raising healthy fat levels with lowering carbs does seem to be a real sticking point of argument, and anguish, perhaps? I feel for the cognitive dissonance going wild from folks who continue to buy the low fat message, in the face of its collosal failure to prevent CVD and T2D. I usually do the three macronutrient approach, and explain that we need to get fuel from food, and explain if you're not getting it from carbs, it needs, must, come from protein which comes 'pre-packaged by nature' - with fat, for satiety. (This excludes living on lettuce!) And we must actually, eat fat to be healthy. I like your response 100%

I'm still getting texts from my friend's friend about the evils of eating saturated fat, alas. (What a price to pay for my hospitality! Ouch!) (I do love the chilly bin she bought me as a gift though! I guess I just need to focus on that.) I texted back: 'You are a great gal, but we should not be engaging on this topic. We can just agree to disagree on the topic of my way of eating. I wish you the best with a low fat way of eating.'

Yeah, I think she is actually hugely triggered, and in fear of getting what at this stage of her life will most likely be mild age-relatied (type two) diabetes, because she is very likely to have metabolic syndrome, and her docs may have told this to her. Not to cut down on carbs, but to cut down on saturated fat. (And her sister has T2D.) We live in messed up times when it comes to dominant messages about food.

If you haven't completely disengaged, you might perhaps suggest a look at this 2019 "state of the art review" from the Journal of the American College of Cardiology, until then low-fat central:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...tm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=the-arrow-188


Journal of the American College of Cardiology:
•Several foods relatively rich in SFAs, such as whole-fat dairy, dark chocolate, and unprocessed meat, are not associated with increased CVD or diabetes risk.
•There is no robust evidence that current population-wide arbitrary upper limits on saturated fat consumption in the United States will prevent CVD or reduce mortality.

 

[AloeSvea]

Fine if a short stay, but if it's a longer stay (or a possibility of a longer stay), why not bring some foods with you?
Nuts, pork scratchings, dried salami type sausages don't need refrigerating. They may even have a fridge and a microwave extending your possibilities.

Quite right.

I think I tend to be an all or nothing kind of gal. And just eating nuts and pork rinds might feel worse than eating nothing at all - I'm not sure. I am no-food fasting about once a month at the moment in prep for the surgery, trying to make a dent in my rising BG, so it would just be a good situation to do that is what I was thinking - killing two birds with one stone as it were.

But good point re taking in non-refridgeable food for sure. (I'm not sure how long I will be in there. My guess is 1-3 days at the mo', but I don't really know. Short enough for the not eating to be OK.) I could also get Keto food delivered, I'm supposing, but very expensive option.

 

[AloeSvea]

If you haven't completely disengaged, you might perhaps suggest a look at this 2019 "state of the art review" from the Journal of the American College of Cardiology, until then low-fat central:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0735109720356874?via=ihub=&utm_source=arrow.proteinpower.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=the-arrow-188


Journal of the American College of Cardiology:
•Several foods relatively rich in SFAs, such as whole-fat dairy, dark chocolate, and unprocessed meat, are not associated with increased CVD or diabetes risk.
•There is no robust evidence that current population-wide arbitrary upper limits on saturated fat consumption in the United States will prevent CVD or reduce mortality.

That was a good short and savoury read! Many thanks.

I would add too in here and to folks in my life who engage me on the topic that the actual cancer and CVD increased risk for processed meat is really tiny as well. And not all processed meat is created equal etc etc.

But yeah, I have suggested to this friend of a friend that we live and let live, and she not try and change my WOE. and I wish her the best on the high carb and low fat WOE.

With really close friends who have engaged me on the subject, completely consensually, I say a version of, "how well has the high carb low fat diet been working for you up to now?". And that is usually followed by silence with these friends, as they have had in these cases considerable fat stored on their bodies, and are taking CVD meds. Good thing about that is it ceases any further discussion, in my experience, which is all good from my end. (Way better than getting texts and lectures about the error of my WOE ways!)

 

[Resurgam]

At almost 74 years of age my hair has still not gone grey, but my younger siblings have been losing their hair colour for decades. The strands of red I used to have are now white, but the brown remains stubbornly dark. My sister in particular was always urging me to cut the fat off and avoid red meat, butter and lard. 40 years ago when her family came to visit the first thing she did was go out and buy sunflower oil.

 

[MrsA2]

Quite right.

I think I tend to be an all or nothing kind of gal. And just eating nuts and pork rinds might feel worse than eating nothing at all - I'm not sure. I am no-food fasting about once a month at the moment in prep for the surgery, trying to make a dent in my rising BG, so it would just be a good situation to do that is what I was thinking - killing two birds with one stone as it were.

But good point re taking in non-refridgeable food for sure. (I'm not sure how long I will be in there. My guess is 1-3 days at the mo', but I don't really know. Short enough for the not eating to be OK.) I could also get Keto food delivered, I'm supposing, but very expensive option.

Just be aware that the staff will be very concerned if you don't eat, as eating "normally" is one of their recovery criteria. Just avoid topic of what is "normal". They also need to see food intake to ensure "bowels open" after anaesthetic.
Not necessarily the right logic but it's been that way for years.

I'd add olives to the list of possibilities

 

[AloeSvea]

Ah! OK @MrsA2. I guess i've only had medical procedures where they shunt you out of hospital asap. Thanks for the tip.

Could I practice deception I wonder? I'm not very good at that, but it would perhaps be preferable to eating their high-carb slop. (Which I am supposing it is! But I would be very happy to be proved wrong.) So take along waterproof rubbish bags? and a chilly bin to put them in?

My bowels open just fine when fasting . So that shouldn't be a problem. (A really long fast would probably pose that issue, but not 3 or 5 days)

 

[Outlier]

In this case I'd definitely go for deception - keeps everyone sweet. And when a huge number of dieticians aren't very knowledgeable about food, we can be sure that everyday nursing staff aren't either unless it is a particular interest.

I haven't actually done this but read about it recently and think it a great wheeze - go to the hospital cafe and have a fry-up. But if 3 days' fast is achievable for you, provided nobody else realises, it's a good option.

 

[Jo123]

I did a talk last year to a local group about low carb. the talk involved a meal and they said they'd do a low-carb meal. The problem was that they were convinced that low-carb was low-fat. Was a pie alright? How about pasta? Then I was asked if vegan was OK? I think I suggested some roast meat and a salad about six times, but was told that they'd do me something low fat.

In the end I received some boiled (skinned) chicken and steamed vegetables. What I used to think of as invalid food. I honestly think that no matter how many times I said it, they simply didn't understand that I didn't care about fat.... "because fat is bad innit".

To be honest they just sound not that bright, and I'm being polite!