COVID vaccination

[Max68]

At the end of the day it comes down to two choices doesn't it. Whether you want to risk having the vaccine or the virus itself.

 

[Member496333]

This thread is absolutely staggering. I feel that I have suddenly arrived at a Trump rally, sharing conspiracy theories and a breeding ground for anti-vax garbage. Exhaustive, huge-sample testing, disaggregated results and peer review will do for me. I rely on insulin and I will similarly rely on either of the two vaccines that are coming on stream and hope that all but a tiny minority do so too.

Well luckily you don't get to decide what choices other people make. You are free to do as you choose, and meanwhile others are free to not necessarily accept everything they're told without question. While it may seem like a false equivalence, if no one questioned things that they thought seemed odd, no one would have yet managed to reverse their type 2 diabetes. By all means take a vaccine if you wish, but please respect the right of others not to, and also their right to express their reasoning should they choose to.

 

[Oldvatr]

I look at it this way. Being 6 feet under may be the ultimate in social distancing, but is not my idea of a brilliant future. I already live with the long term consequences of being a smoker, so I do not want to add covid-19 aftermath to the effects I already struggle with. I know it will solve my diabetes cure/reversal dilemma for once and for all. Being dead is pretty permanent regardless of which deity you believe in.

I will take the vaccine even if it isn't; fully bedded in. I still have faith in science, and yes, I believe that the companies marketing the vaccine would not want to risk such a public debacle as a corrupt money-grab. The alternative is not an appealing one to me,

 

[spendercat]

My mother went to train as a children’s nurse in 1946. She nursed little children dying of things like scarlet fever, polio and whooping cough, on night duty she sat and sewed shrouds for the little ones.
By 1950 she understood that nearly all those children could have been saved by a)vaccination or b) penicillin. All her children were vaccinated.
Today we have been safe from lethal diseases for so long we have forgotten just how bad they can be. Hence the divisive anti-vaxxer nonsense coming out of the United States and polluting our public discourse.

 

[Akendall1966]

Seven months for a trial that should normally take years, no chance I’m taking it unless I’m forced to at work. I will eventually take it once I know people aren’t growing extra ears or bursting into flames but diabetic or not I ain’t being anyone’s trial beagle. Remember the miracle treatment for pregnant women...yes it wasn’t a vaccine but regardless I ain’t trusting no vaccine for now

thalidomide scandal is one the reasons we have glp and mhra oversight. Apples and oranges using that as a justification for scaremongering. Shame on you.

 

[LizLola]

This is truly an interesting discussion. If you speak with older ex military personnel who had been given all types of vaccines to prevent diseases whilst in combat zones, you will find they now are suffering with debilitating effects, memory loss, aches, pains, fatigue plus more. The interesting thing is, like most government investigations, they dont start until 30/40 years afterwards, so anyone affected is likely to be too I'll or deceased to challenge anything. Of course it will get wrapped into old age, dementia etc... because side effects from drugs can easily get hidden. I'm not against a vaccine but my right to receive or refuse it is and must remain my right.

The military don't JUST have lots of vaccines. They have also, in the time frame you mention, been exposed through their work and have been deliberately exposed 'to see the effects' of chemical agents in the past. You couldn't possibly separate the two, and for serious effects years later I'd be leaning heavily towards the latter explanation.

I don't see it as a problem with the vaccine being quickly brought out - the safety tests, as delineated above, are similar to any vaccine. I see the problem being the new technology, the use of the T cell stimulator, which no-one has used before, using a segment of RNA. I would have thought that with such a new technology, it would be best to wait a year or so and check back on those vaccinated. I feel a segment of RNA, seen as a foreign protein by the body, could perhaps spark an over-reaction of the defences and cause ME-like illnesses or perhaps allergies. Very happy to have this worry discounted by any doctory-scientisty-types on here.

I haven't been out since March, having been diabetic for 50 years, as I have asthma as well, and possibly a type of inflammatory arthritis. My first reaction was - yes, please, please get it to me asap. now i'm vacillating between responses!

 

[Catlady19]

Is it the one being offered by Pfizer? Depends on how much you trust a drug company about this? They have been prosecuted and fined in the past for making false marketing claims.

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/pfi...lkb3O0cxU7vgOVUBvRvIVtYinqcga7t6hg0p8laVa9XMU

If you look carefully you will see that all (certainly the big pharmas) have had similar actions.

 

[Jo_the_boat]

There seems to be an incorrect assumption that so-called anti-vaxxers are the same as those who wish to be allowed to debate the potential efficacy or otherwise of a vaccine. They are not. I am to be convinced either way but to make a decision for me, my grandchildren and my parents I need to hear a balanced debate. We have not had that. I believe we are being railroaded, and I will continue to believe that till we talk openly.
The biggest and most morally disturbing problem for me is that debate itself is being suppressed. Freedon of thought and speech are fundamentals and when I see them being compromised, I really worry.
To the person above who wants to have the vaccination, I paraphrase Voltaire;
‘I do not agree with your choice but you, I, indeed everyone should defend your right to make it.’

 

[j_c_boing]

In the past a new vaccine would have required isolating the virus then finding a way to kill it or weaken it, so that it could still provoke an immune response while not infecting anybody (well, not too many). That could take many years.

The RNA sequence of SARS-CoV-2 was emailed around the world by Chinese scientists in January 2020. Three hours later one scientist had already determined a potential vaccine candidate. That cut three years off the development time.

In the past vaccine development would have gone along these lines -

1. Find a candidate.
2. Beg for funding for animal testing.
3. Perform the studies.
4. Write up and publish results.
5. Beg for funding for small scale safety testing in humans.
6. Find the volunteers.
7. Perform the study.
8. Write up and publish the results.
9. Repeat steps 5 to 8 for Phase II (safety/efficacy tests in hundreds of humans)
10. Repeat steps 5 to 8 for Phase III (safety/efficacy tests in tens of thousands of humans).
11. Send all the results to the regulatory agencies
12. Wait for approval
13. Find somebody to make millions of doses.
14. Woo-Hoo. We’ve got a vaccine.

Note that all those ‘beg for funding’ steps take a long time - and that time gets longer for each successive phase.

But vaccines for covid-19 have thrown that playbook out of the window.

The first three steps for animal studies would have been roughly the same. It’s after than things got different. There was no real begging for funding. Money was coming in from governments and big pharma. So they didn’t have to wait to start human trials. And they didn’t have to run them sequentially.

Once they they were sure, from Phase I, that it wasn’t going to kill volunteers they could start on Phase II and Phase III. Phase II started first while they tried to get enough volunteers for the efficacy testing. Phase III started before Phase II was complete.

And they’re not having to send all the data to the regulatory agencies in one batch. The MHRA have been looking at the data from the AstraZeneca/Oxford as it’s been released. So they should be ready to make a decision within a week or two after the final data.

And AZ have already said that they can make 4 million doses for the UK before the end of the year, and a billion doses next year.

So that’s how we get a vaccine in less than a year. We don’t cut back on the safety testing, we cut back on the begging for funding and the red tape.

Absolutely spot on. Also those argue that argue "it takes years to develop a vaccine" , fail to recognise the modern world has never faced a pandemic on this scale. Never has there been such rich a source of willing candidates and ability to test efficacy. Finding enough candidates would normally take years.

Drug companies aren't allowed to just do what they like. Medical experts who live by the hippocratic oath they take, review research data over and over and over. The data and findings are published in general medical journals, so its effectively peer reviewed again and again by medics worldwide.
The experts who read this stuff have literally dedicated their entire lives to saving people, so to suggest they would allow a drug company to do anything unsafe (even if the company wanted to) is patently mad. It would literally take willful neglect and silence every of every medical expert across the globe. Not to mention the commercial suicide of any drug company whose data was found to be widely condemned.

If they wanted to roll out a dodgy vaccine, they would have done so many months ago. They haven't and they won't, for all the reasons above. We are still waiting despite their claims if 95% efficacy.

Nothing in this life is 100% safe; you'd never leave your home or cross a road if that was your benchmark. I am satisfied those in the UK who are responsible for reviewing and checking vaccines, will do so thoroughly and spot any oncoming traffic. That is all that can be reasonably expected, if we want to get back to normality and save lives and livelihoods.

The conspiracists and tin-hatters would do well to apply some logic in their search for the Wizard of Oz.

I'll be first in line for the vaccine, as soon as its offered.

 

[Catlady19]

Labour now calling for 'misinformation' to be "stamped out".

Seems some are afraid that not everyone agrees that a rushed vaccine is a good idea, or even necessary. Any nonconforming views must be silenced

There is a difference between having a debate about an issue or voicing views that the vaccine has been produced too quickly and feeding completely ludicrous false information into the public domain though.

 

[Catlady19]

This is truly an interesting discussion. If you speak with older ex military personnel who had been given all types of vaccines to prevent diseases whilst in combat zones, you will find they now are suffering with debilitating effects, memory loss, aches, pains, fatigue plus more. The interesting thing is, like most government investigations, they dont start until 30/40 years afterwards, so anyone affected is likely to be too I'll or deceased to challenge anything. Of course it will get wrapped into old age, dementia etc... because side effects from drugs can easily get hidden. I'm not against a vaccine but my right to receive or refuse it is and must remain my right.

Yes, I am not sure how you could possibly distinguish between a vaccine many years ago and ailments that are usual in old age.

 

[Dazzyd]

There is no way I will be taking anything that has had it's development reduced from 10 years to 8 months topped with the fact this is a "new" method of vaccination - mRNA, where you are essentailly genetically modified because the "vaccine" inserts itself into the DNA of your cells - who the hell knows what this will lead to in future - and remember that we were told that Thalidomide was "safe"...

 

[Dazzyd]

This is truly an interesting discussion. If you speak with older ex military personnel who had been given all types of vaccines to prevent diseases whilst in combat zones, you will find they now are suffering with debilitating effects, memory loss, aches, pains, fatigue plus more. The interesting thing is, like most government investigations, they dont start until 30/40 years afterwards, so anyone affected is likely to be too I'll or deceased to challenge anything. Of course it will get wrapped into old age, dementia etc... because side effects from drugs can easily get hidden. I'm not against a vaccine but my right to receive or refuse it is and must remain my right.

Especially considering that the pharmacutical companies have been given immunity from legal challenges should it cause harm...

 

[Dazzyd]

At the end of the day it comes down to two choices doesn't it. Whether you want to risk having the vaccine or the virus itself.

I had whuflu in October 2019 and recovered quite happily after a week of flu-like symptoms...

 

[Catlady19]

The military don't JUST have lots of vaccines. They have also, in the time frame you mention, been exposed through their work and have been deliberately exposed 'to see the effects' of chemical agents in the past. You couldn't possibly separate the two, and for serious effects years later I'd be leaning heavily towards the latter explanation.

I don't see it as a problem with the vaccine being quickly brought out - the safety tests, as delineated above, are similar to any vaccine. I see the problem being the new technology, the use of the T cell stimulator, which no-one has used before, using a segment of RNA. I would have thought that with such a new technology, it would be best to wait a year or so and check back on those vaccinated. I feel a segment of RNA, seen as a foreign protein by the body, could perhaps spark an over-reaction of the defences and cause ME-like illnesses or perhaps allergies. Very happy to have this worry discounted by any doctory-scientisty-types on here.

I haven't been out since March, having been diabetic for 50 years, as I have asthma as well, and possibly a type of inflammatory arthritis. My first reaction was - yes, please, please get it to me asap. now i'm vacillating between responses!

Hiya, listen to this doctor, he explains it quite clearly.

 

[Oldvatr]

There is no way I will be taking anything that has had it's development reduced from 10 years to 8 months topped with the fact this is a "new" method of vaccination - mRNA, where you are essentailly genetically modified because the "vaccine" inserts itself into the DNA of your cells - who the hell knows what this will lead to in future - and remember that we were told that Thalidomide was "safe"...

I assume you will therefore be avoiding a meat replacement snack food that uses GMO technology to provide artificial vitamin B12 and D3 and heme iron simply because normally these come from animal sources only. Other products are in the pipeline from cheese to milk and eggs and are mass-produced in factory complexes without seeing the light of day

 

[Catlady19]

I had whuflu in October 2019 and recovered quite happily after a week of flu-like symptoms...

Well if you are confident that you had Covid-19 before anyone else then good for you, no further action needed. Although have you considered that perhaps you just had a different virus and you might still be at risk? Anyhow, your decision.

 

[Catlady19]

There is no way I will be taking anything that has had it's development reduced from 10 years to 8 months topped with the fact this is a "new" method of vaccination - mRNA, where you are essentailly genetically modified because the "vaccine" inserts itself into the DNA of your cells - who the hell knows what this will lead to in future - and remember that we were told that Thalidomide was "safe"...

The vaccine doesn't actually work that way - I have inserted a video from a doctor above who explains quite simply how it actually works, it might put your mind at rest.

Also Thalidomide was 70 years ago! It was safe for it's intended purpose and is still used today and that is why we now have regulatory bodies to ensure that sort of said error doesn't happen.

 

[Yoga Tam]

'Spreading anti-vax garbage' is a very immflamatory statement - as if anyone who raises a question or a doubt immediately become an 'anti-vaxxer'!! The vaccine debate is far, far more complex than simply being pro or anti vaccine - and it is further complicated by the vast sums of money that stood to made by the drugs companies who demonstrably have a vested interest in selling a vaccine to us. It is simply not possible to have tested this vaccine for safety, as they may know the results for 3 months or 6 months even at a stretch - but how are the participants doing after 12 months / 24 months / 36 months / 120 months? Their rate of Covid (presumably) has gone down - but what about their rate of diabetes, thyroid, asthma, coeliac, alzheimers etc - as it's the immune system that vaccines are working on, presumably we'll be checking how the auto-immue disorders do?? Oh yes that's right, we try not to look at that because correlation does not equal causation and the numbers do not look at all good. I am neither pro nor anti vaccine, but am highly sceptical of anything anyone tries to make me do, when they stand to make so much money from it and when I do not see intelligent and transparent disclosure of the issues that surround it. The human body and the immune system is far more complicated than vaccine therapy and it is staggeringly arrogant to think that anyone knows all there is to know about it - least of all me.

 

[Clarkeymusic]

There is no way I will be taking anything that has had it's development reduced from 10 years to 8 months topped with the fact this is a "new" method of vaccination - mRNA, where you are essentailly genetically modified because the "vaccine" inserts itself into the DNA of your cells - who the hell knows what this will lead to in future - and remember that we were told that Thalidomide was "safe"...

The DHSC has publicly explained it does nothing to your DNA, so phrasing it as genetic modification is a bit misleading. All for freedom of choice but based on fact to be fair.