Diabetes Uk dietary advice

[chris lowe]

15 degree baths????? Are you maaaaaad. I won't get my big toe wet unless the water is lobster hot (get in bath a whiter shade of pale and come out lobster red)

 

[borofergie]

15 degree baths????? Are you maaaaaad. I won't get my big toe wet unless the water is lobster hot (get in bath a whiter shade of pale and come out lobster red)

It's not so bad after the initial shock, I can tolerate it quite well. Although something very strange happens if you splash water that cold on your face:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammalian_diving_reflex

 

[Defren]

You need your bumps felt :lol:

You don't have any bumps worth feeling after 20 mins in a 15 degree bath...

I tried the 15 degree plunge pool bath at Center Parcs once-It's true,You're lumps try and escape up the staircase if you know what I mean! :shock: :shock:

I have no idea what on earth you could mean :lol: Vanishing lumps in cold water? Well I never :lol: :lol:

 

[xyzzy]

Phoenix I wasn't trying to have a go, honest, but was more interested in having a go at DUK and to show any of the new T2's why I along with the majority of more experienced diet only T2 people on the forum have a real problem with their position on this stuff.

On the surface the diet looks healthy but healthy for who? A non diabetic? Probably. An insulin using diabetic who does some form of carb restriction? Well as you say not without some serious work. A diet only T2? Never. I agree you could optimise what you pick from the diet but the point is it doesn't say any of that. It just gives pick this or that without much regard to carb content at all AND it should.

To match with their ACTUAL position statement on diabetes it should recognise that carbohydrate is a major contributor to glycemic control. If you and I can pick different options and get completely different results then to me it shows it does not recognise statements such as that. So what's the point in having a position statement in the first place? As you know this is one of my key gripes about the system as it stands.

On the dietary percentages / grams stuff. All I will say is I state my opinion about the make up of a good diet only T2 menu based on my own experience and that of many other forum members. What concerns me is very simplistically that a T2 who wants to do "low carb" gets safe advice. You are right that safe advice isn't just "don't eat more than x grams of carbs" there are other considerations to take into account.

The bottom line is most diet only T2's who I concern myself with do have to end up drastically cutting carbs so to do that the obvious ones to cut are the ones with the biggest hit so sugar, rice, pasta... all the normal stuff. Now I completely agree once you have cut those carbs out you will have cut a certain amount of energy from your daily diet which will need to be replaced. How you go about replacing that lack is a personal choice. You may replace with overtly fatty food or you may replace with a lower GI carb source so extra veg for example or you may up your protein but more likely you end up doing a bit of both. If there is such a thing that a low carb, low fat, low protein exists its around there somewhere but I would still say at the levels that diet only T2's have to cut carbs to that essentially means an LCHF diet should be chosen because its the best option.

 

[CollieBoy]

You need your bumps felt :lol:

I tried the 15 degree plunge pool bath at Center Parcs once-It's true,You're lumps try and escape up the staircase if you know what I mean! :shock: :shock:

I have no idea what on earth you could mean :lol: Vanishing lumps in cold water? Well I never :lol: :lol:

Do you mean getting two lumps on the back of yoyr head (Think about it!) :shock: :shock:

 

[phoenix]

If a person (Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss Joe/anna blogs reads the DUK dietary information, they won't know about portion size as it's not clearly set out (or if they were a large eater before diagnosis, the amounts may not be enough, but as they are suggested along with this so called healthy diet, persons Blogs, may feel safe eating higher quantities). Sooo, they would likely go for a portion size they are used to. Now, that portion size could be quite larger than is intended on the DUK menu advice. This could lead to even larger carb and calorie intakes. That being the case then Phoenix' calculation at the lower end, and xyzzy' at the higher end could actually both be very low? People following a 'respected' [cough] diet could end up eating what is the recommended daily allowance of carbs for a person without diabetes, or perhaps even more.

[/quote][/quote]

Totally agree, I was 'lucky', at diagnosis I was in hospital for 10 days. Every week day the dietitian sat with me for a hour, we started with next days menus which were ordered by weight of each item. I got to know how much I 'should' eat and not just carbs. I still use scales to weigh my starches. I'll estimate for a restaurant meal but have been known to use scales in hotels.
Portion inflation is a real problem.
From the US but I think is applicable in the UK
http://hp2010.nhlbihin.net/portion/
(can I just add a bit of personal info here, I have not always been thin, I now try hard to keep myself within a normal BMI, I had put on weight before I lost it dramatically when I moved to France, that's why I originally thought I had T2. I was thin as a child, but like many women found it difficult to lose afer childbirth and even when I lost it, found it easy to put on again. insulin is not a panacea.,if I put weight on I need more insulin, if I do less exercise I need more insulin and put weight on. It is a vicious circle. As you can see from earlier posts of necessity I don't eat high calories .

 

[Defren]

If a person (Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss Joe/anna blogs reads the DUK dietary information, they won't know about portion size as it's not clearly set out (or if they were a large eater before diagnosis, the amounts may not be enough, but as they are suggested along with this so called healthy diet, persons Blogs, may feel safe eating higher quantities). Sooo, they would likely go for a portion size they are used to. Now, that portion size could be quite larger than is intended on the DUK menu advice. This could lead to even larger carb and calorie intakes. That being the case then Phoenix' calculation at the lower end, and xyzzy' at the higher end could actually both be very low? People following a 'respected' [cough] diet could end up eating what is the recommended daily allowance of carbs for a person without diabetes, or perhaps even more.

[/quote]

Totally agree, I was 'lucky', at diagnosis I was in hospital for 10 days. Every week day the dietitian sat with me for a hour, we started with next days menus which were ordered by weight of each item. I got to know how much I 'should' eat and not just carbs. I still use scales to weigh my starches. I'll estimate for a restaurant meal but have been known to use scales in hotels.
Portion inflation is a real problem.
From the US but I think is applicable in the UK
http://hp2010.nhlbihin.net/portion/
(can I just add a bit of personal info here, I have not always been thin, I now try hard to keep myself within a normal BMI, I had put on weight before I lost it dramatically when I moved to France, that's why I originally thought I had T2. I was thin as a child, but like many women found it difficult to lose afer childbirth and even when I lost it, found it easy to put on again. insulin is not a panacea.,if I put weight on I need more insulin, if I do less exercise I need more insulin and put weight on. It is a vicious circle. As you can see from earlier posts of necessity I don't eat high calories .[/quote]

Phoenix I was exactly the same. As a youngster, I ran distance 1500 meters, cross country, and I swam every single day. I was tiny, but was never still and ate like a horse. Uni made me a bit more sedentary, but not much, as I still kept very active. Work was different, as that was office based quite a lot, and even when out of the office I was not active. My problems came when I was diagnosed with AJA, that completely wiped me out. I could no longer work, and spent months in bed. I also had long periods of being on Prednisilone (steroids) which made me gain a lot of weight. I lost the majority of the weight, but was to all intents and purposes wheelchair bound. It was through those issues, and there were many, that finally I had a BGT and was diagnosed diabetic. So that's my story of how I got here.

When I was at my fittest, I would probably eaten twice the diet the DUK recommends, and then come back for seconds, but I was so active, I was more like a skinned rabbit. :lol:

 

[didie]

What amazes me on that site is that it says all carbs will increase your sugar levels and then gives out what seems to me (and I don't technically eat low carb, but probably reduced carb) really carby meal suggestions. Surely if carbs raise your sugar levels, a diabetic, well a Type 2 like me, should be aiming to restrict the amount of carbs eaten to keep your levels down. Isn't that the whole point - to get your sugar levels down?

Maybe my post-stroke addled brain is missing something, but isn't that basic common sense? :?

 

[lucylocket61]

What amazes me on that site is that it says all carbs will increase your sugar levels and then gives out what seems to me (and I don't technically eat low carb, but probably reduced carb) really carby meal suggestions

I agree Didie

My DSN seems to be taking the approach, recommended to her by DUK, to leave my carb intake alone, but medicate me to make it a safe level.

I asked why not reduce my carbs so my sugar load will be less and I have safe levels without meds, but she told me I would get malnourished at less than 180 carbs a day.

Must admit thought that I calculated how many carbs I was having before diagnosis and it was well over 300g a day :shock:

I am doing my own research about portion control and portion size. The DSN said a portion was what I can get in one hand. And as everyone's hands are a different size, each portion will be different. But bigger people, who need bigger portions, have bigger hands, so it all works out properly without weighing. Just keep to the palm sized portions.

Which seems illogical as she said both I (5'2") and my DH (6'7") needed 180g a day of carbs as recommended by the NHS. :crazy:

At that point I gave up and came on here.

 

[phoenix]

I am doing my own research about portion control and portion size. The DSN said a portion was what I can get in one hand. And as everyone's hands are a different size, each portion will be different. But bigger people, who need bigger portions, have bigger hands, so it all works out properly without weighing. Just keep to the palm sized portions

.

Which seems illogical as she said both I (5'2") and my DH (6'7") needed 180g a day of carbs as recommended by the NHS
Given that blood comprises about 8% of body weight that is illogical. Someone with a lower amount of blood will need a correspondingly lower amount of glucose
My OH needs more to eat than me and so more carbs (and protein and fats) It's sad and difficult when plating up a meal.

 

[Pneu]

I have made a number of edits to this thread... please ensure all posts are in reference to the original topic...

Posts aimed directly or indirectly to cause offence or provoke response from other members will not be tolerated; you have all been warned.

 

[BioHaZarD]

What amazes me on that site is that it says all carbs will increase your sugar levels and then gives out what seems to me (and I don't technically eat low carb, but probably reduced carb) really carby meal suggestions

I agree Didie

My DSN seems to be taking the approach, recommended to her by DUK, to leave my carb intake alone, but medicate me to make it a safe level.

I asked why not reduce my carbs so my sugar load will be less and I have safe levels without meds, but she told me I would get malnourished at less than 180 carbs a day.

That's exactly what my DN said, instead of agreeing with me with my evidence that it's working great, she said take another pill so I can eat more carbs. That lasted 1 day, I am back on 1 pill with my levels lowering great.

 

[borofergie]

Which seems illogical as she said both I (5'2") and my DH (6'7") needed 180g a day of carbs as recommended by the NHS
Given that blood comprises about 8% of body weight that is illogical. Someone with a lower amount of blood will need a correspondingly lower amount of glucose
My OH needs more to eat than me and so more carbs (and protein and fats) It's sad and difficult when plating up a meal.

I'm not sure I buy this.

The first 100-120g or so of carbohydrate you eat every day is gobbled up by your brain*. This is the same for everybody, no matter what their body size. Any excess glucose is then used to fuel either your muscles or stored in your liver. I understand that a bigger person has more muscle mass, which therefore requires more refuelling.

It's a question of fluxes. Both your brain and your muscles are "sucking" glucose out of your blood and your liver is "pumping" glucose into your blood. The actual volume of blood is irrelevant. However much is sucked out simply needs to be pumped in to keep the system in equilibrium.

I have a strong personal suspicion that reason that we keep seeing the 25-150g range for carbohydrate restriction is that this is the range that covers your brain's energy requirement. Above 150g, you definitely have glucose to spare for muscle storage and liver refilling. Below 25g you are meeting your brain's energy requirement with gluconeogenesis. Insulin resistant or not, it's pretty difficult to be hyperglycemic if you are barely meeting the glucose needs of your brain.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selfish_brain_theory

 

[Unbeliever]

Its hard o believe isn't it? In some ways it is the same old " a normal , healthy diet" Normal for whom? Non diabeitics of course!But to have diabetes means that you cannot process food in the same way as non -diabetics.

I can understand why an organisation such as DUK or even the NHS would be reluctant to give dietary advice until they were absolutely convinced it was the correct diet but this is not the case. They are actually endorsing a diet - in turn endorsed by the NHS
which is extremely dangerous for many diabetics and certainly won't help any diabetic.
How DO they get away with it? And this is the organisation my HCPs recommend to me as the ultimate authority and experts on diabetes?
WE constantly hear that HCps have to toe the party line and could be liable to prosecution if they didn't . Many of them have admitted to patients that they do not agree with the party line and feel it is damaging patients. I wonder what might happen if they were all to be held responsible for these toxic policies.
They always tell us that t hey are conducting research into dietary matters. Was any research done into the current guidelines.?
isn't t here some mechanism by which those doctors, nurses and dietiians who wholeheartedly disagree with these dietary recommendaions can blow the whistle or opt out of having to recommend a diet to patients which they know will harm them?Or do they console themselves with the thought that diabetes patients are notoriously non -compliant and will take little notice anyhow.?

My brother in,law was diagnosed with t2 a year ago. At my suggesion he ran his extremely high-carb diet past his SN. Shhhe assured hin ot was fine. he has now developed kidney problems. She still assures him his diet is fine,. tragic,

 

[xyzzy]

Which seems illogical as she said both I (5'2") and my DH (6'7") needed 180g a day of carbs as recommended by the NHS. :crazy:

Lucy (or anyone) any idea where she got that 180g figure from? That's actually quite low for this country and seems a lot lower than DUK.

 

[Defren]

What amazes me on that site is that it says all carbs will increase your sugar levels and then gives out what seems to me (and I don't technically eat low carb, but probably reduced carb) really carby meal suggestions

I agree Didie

My DSN seems to be taking the approach, recommended to her by DUK, to leave my carb intake alone, but medicate me to make it a safe level.

I asked why not reduce my carbs so my sugar load will be less and I have safe levels without meds, but she told me I would get malnourished at less than 180 carbs a day.

Must admit thought that I calculated how many carbs I was having before diagnosis and it was well over 300g a day :shock:

I am doing my own research about portion control and portion size. The DSN said a portion was what I can get in one hand. And as everyone's hands are a different size, each portion will be different. But bigger people, who need bigger portions, have bigger hands, so it all works out properly without weighing. Just keep to the palm sized portions.

Which seems illogical as she said both I (5'2") and my DH (6'7") needed 180g a day of carbs as recommended by the NHS. :crazy:

At that point I gave up and came on here.

I can remember reading about someone who does, or did measure by the palm of their hand, but I can't remember who, or what it was about. I weigh everything, work out the nutritional value, from the weighed amount, rather than per handful. That works for me, and I know exactly what carbs, fat, protein etc I am eating. Makes life so much simpler.

 

[lucylocket61]

xyzzy

My DSN got the figure of 180g carbs by adding

50g carbs per meal for 3 meals
10g carbs for 2 snacks

It is written on the printed sheet she gave me, which appears to be the surgerys own diet, not from any other source. However, re-reading it, it also says that I should have:

8-10 level tablespoons of cooked rice or pasta with a meal, and it equals 50g carbs. I am not sure that figure is right. And I couldnt eat that amount in one meal anyway.

 

[jopar]

I did check out the menu planner for both myself and hubby...

There is one thing that I did notice that might make a difference... It didn't allow for height, only if weight loss was wanted And the age group's were quite large in range covering a couple decades... as in 30-59 (if I remember rightly) now the bodies needs are quite different for the 30 year and 59 year old! so perhaps this distorts it all!

In my case, yes to comply I would have to increase, I can't manage 2 slices of bread let alone the 3 it suggested with yoghurt or piece of fruit for afters! And it's tea menu well that would be 2 meals for me!

But I suspect that in the main that it's one of those simple program, where upon it uses an answer system, that if number fall between 4-11 the it's 3 slices of bread! If weight loss is required then it's 2 slices of bread!

As to the

bigger people, who need bigger portions, have bigger hands

Not always, my ex-husband who was about 1ft taller than me, hands were smaller than mine!

 

[Unbeliever]

I am almost certain it was sid who said that he had been told to measure in that way.

 

[Defren]

I can remember reading about someone who does, or did measure by the palm of their hand, but I can't remember who, or what it was about. I measure, work out the nutritional value, from the weighed amount, rather than per handful. That works for me, and I know exactly what carbs, fat, protein etc I am eating. Makes life so much simpler.

Moderator Edit (Pneu): This post is inappropriate and has been removed.

- please ensure when posting you are contributing to the original post
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I know what they say about men with big feet





































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