Fasting 7 days (probably)

[bulkbiker]

I am curious why no hunger? would it not be a natural (healthy) response to not eating for 4 days to be very hungry? sounds odd to me

In my opinion what we know as "hunger" is more conditioning to eat at specific times usually triggered by certain foods. I reckon that is why people are so keen to find "cereal" type foods to have for "breakfast".
By changing what I eat completely and following ultra low carb/carnivore I think I have finally taken control of that conditioning and ditched it. I know the food types that trigger the desire to eat often and avoid them completely.
Fasting has been done by humans for millennia (when there wasn't any food around) so its hardly new. Once we have re-established control over eating then it can be quite beneficial I'm sure by day 6 or 7 I'll want to have something but so far nothing really appeals.
For full disclosure it does help that I have a sore tongue at the moment so eating would also be a bit difficult.

 

[Fenn]

In my opinion what we know as "hunger" is more conditioning to eat at specific times usually triggered by certain foods. I reckon that is why people are so keen to find "cereal" type foods to have for "breakfast".
By changing what I eat completely and following ultra low carb/carnivore I think I have finally taken control of that conditioning and ditched it. I know the food types that trigger the desire to eat often and avoid them completely.
Fasting has been done by humans for millennia (when there wasn't any food around) so its hardly new. Once we have re-established control over eating then it can be quite beneficial I'm sure by day 6 or 7 I'll want to have something but so far nothing really appeals.
For full disclosure it does help that I have a sore tongue at the moment so eating would also be a bit difficult.

Hmmm, maybe, as I have said you know a lot more about this than me (basically I know absolutely nothing apart from what you have said) but I would surmise the hunger trigger in our brains is to tell us to eat so we get nourishment and therefore don't die, I would also surmise you have convinced yourself that what you are doing is a good thing and turned off that trigger in your brain which is very interesting, humans fasting over that millennia did it not out of choice so I doubt they were lucky enough to not feel hunger, I would guess they were doing everything they could to find food.

I hope your tongue gets better soon and good luck with your fast.

 

[bulkbiker]

I would surmise the hunger trigger in our brains is to tell us to eat so we get nourishment and therefore don't die

I agree completely however as we carry around large quantities of "reserve food" i.e. fat stores then the chances of me dying on a 7 day fast are to be honest miniscule certainly not due to lack of nutrition.. I'm living off bread... I just ate it 10 years ago...
At one of the talks at the PHC conference this year someone mentioned that the average fit "normal" weight person carries around 40,000 calories in stored fat someone significantly overweight can have as many as 400,000 cals stored. Once you can access these stores, which my level of ketones indicates I can at the moment, then I can live off them for a while.
There have been some discussions about exactly how many of these stored calories it is possible to access in one day but I'm not sure anyone has studied fasting enough to know for sure. The fat stores are there precisely to cover periods when we don't have access to food so all I'm doing is artificially creating that environment at home.
You are however right that the body wants to get nutrition which is why a boost in the metabolic rate on the third day of fasting has been seen in studies... as an impetus to go out and get food.

 

[kokhongw]

I am curious why no hunger? would it not be a natural (healthy) response to not eating for 4 days to be very hungry? sounds odd to me

If you noticed, the lower fasting glucose ~4.0 mmol is offset by the higher ketones ~4.0mol.

The elevated ketones level ensures that our brain remains fully fueled and functional. It also acts as appetite suppressant. Keeps us in a steady state to make logical decisions.

In contrast, a hypoglycemic event occurs when both glucose AND ketones levels are low. That results in the intense hunger and frenzied feeding that is commonly experienced by us, but often dismissed as just another hangry episode or lack of will power. In reality we are just reacting to our wild hormonal fluctuation.

Is it any wonder then that fasting is often part of religious practices that seeks to bring the heart and mind to a state of calmness?

Edited by Mod

 

[Mbaker]

Late Check-in (2 meetings this morning).

Weight training worked last night to raise blood sugar from 3.0 to 3.6, so lessons learned have been consistent. Did 1 set of 60 kg lat pull down for 10, 1 set flys @ 40 kg for 10 (almost kept going), dead lift 1 set 140 kg for 6

Wednesday 7th:

100 push ups before leaving the house

The below is as I have had before i.e. muscle loss after 2 days (the sweet spot for me looks like 1.5 to 2 days of hard (workout based, fluid) fasting). A little slow down in metabolic rate, which is expected as the body wants to conserve. Both of these I get back in short measure on the evidence of 2 previous fasts.

I did have sleeping issues last nigh waking every 2 hours.

It will be interesting to see tomorrows results.

 

[bulkbiker]

Late Check-in (2 meetings this morning).

Weight training worked last night to raise blood sugar from 3.0 to 3.6, so lessons learned have been consistent. Did 1 set of 60 kg lat pull down for 10, 1 set flys @ 40 kg for 10 (almost kept going), dead lift 1 set 140 kg for 6

Wednesday 7th:
View attachment 29395
100 push ups before leaving the house

View attachment 29396

The below is as I have had before i.e. muscle loss after 2 days (the sweet spot for me looks like 1.5 to 2 days of hard (workout based, fluid) fasting). A little slow down in metabolic rate, which is expected as the body wants to conserve. Both of these I get back in short measure on the evidence of 2 previous fasts.

View attachment 29398

I did have sleeping issues last nigh waking every 2 hours.

It will be interesting to see tomorrows results.

Quite a significant impact on your ketones.. I always knew exercise was bad!!!!

 

[Fenn]

If you noticed, the lower fasting glucose ~4.0 mmol is offset by the higher ketones ~4.0mol.

The elevated ketones level ensures that our brain remains fully fueled and functional. It also acts as appetite suppressant. Keeps us in a steady state to make logical decisions.

In contrast, a hypoglycemic event occurs when both glucose AND ketones levels are low. That results in the intense hunger and frenzied feeding that is commonly experienced by us, but often dismissed as just another hangry episode or lack of will power. In reality we are just reacting to our wild hormonal fluctuation.

Is it any wonder then that fasting is often part of religious practices that seeks to bring the heart and mind to a state of calmness?

Edited by Mod

Thanks, I wonder why someone on a ketogenic diet would suffer hypos? this in fact suggest someone with the potential to hypo would in fact be absolutely fine to drive, fly an aircraft or walk on the moon whilst in hypo bg levels as long as they had a certain level of keytones? fascinating

 

[bulkbiker]

Thanks, I wonder why someone on a ketogenic diet would suffer hypos? this in fact suggest someone with the potential to hypo would in fact be absolutely fine to drive, fly an aircraft or walk on the moon whilst in hypo bg levels as long as they had a certain level of keytones? fascinating

They don't hypo because low blood sugar is natural. A hypo is an artificially lowered BG number using insulin or medication.There is a study oft cited by Stephen Phinney, although I believe never published, where trial participants in ketosis were injected with insulin. Their blood sugar went down into the 1's with no apparent ill effects whatsoever. As most people never test their BG levels then we have no idea how low most are when driving, flying etc...

 

[kokhongw]

Thanks, I wonder why someone on a ketogenic diet would suffer hypos? this in fact suggest someone with the potential to hypo would in fact be absolutely fine to drive, fly an aircraft or walk on the moon whilst in hypo bg levels as long as they had a certain level of keytones? fascinating

You are absolutely correct. Someone on ketogenic diet is unlikely to experience symptomatic hypo. Dr Keith Runyan's (T1D) blog detailed his own views/experience regarding hypoglycemia

https://ketogenicdiabeticathlete.wo...-diabetes-mechanisms-avoidance-and-treatment/

Where he highlighted

Can Nutritional Ketosis Provide An Alternate Brain Fuel And Protect Us From Hypoglycemia?

Another topic of research that needs to be done is to measure the degree to which ketones created by the liver by following a ketogenic diet can act as a brain fuel and lead to a reduction in or lack of symptoms of hypoglycemia in those with T1DM. We know from the study done by Drenick et. al. (ref 9) that in non-diabetic obese persons who fasted for 2 months and achieved blood beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB) levels of 8 mM when given a single dose of insulin to induce severe hypoglycemia suffered no symptoms despite BG values as low as 9 mg/dl (0.5 mmol/l).

However such experiments were no longer considered humane since the late 60s. That was likely why Dr Phinney never got round to publish his sets of results.

Separately this 2009 study on MCT for T1D showed similar results. though glucose levels were not as low
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671041/

Hence we now have a couple of generations of T1D/T2D that are unaware of the protective effects of ketones.

Fortunately Alzheimer's research into brain metabolism may once again be changing that...
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/bl...nd-the-treatment-of-alzheimer’s-disease.1915/

However we have to keep in mind that these are test done under lab controlled conditions, and legally we only reference glucose levels to determine hypoglycemia and does not consider ketone levels. Hence while ketones likely explains asymptomatic hypoglycemia, it is still legally considered unsafe to operate heavy machinery while in low glucose state.

 

[bulkbiker]

Today's afternoon readings

BG 3.7
Ketones 4.6

Feeling a bit cold in hands and feet today so will switch up to an egg fast tonight.. prob 4 poached eggs with some butter.
Was thinking of doing this anyway and am feeling a bit peckish anyway... be interesting to see if it stalls weight loss or not.

 

[Mbaker]

Quite a significant impact on your ketones.. I always knew exercise was bad!!!!

This is an interesting area. There clearly is a sweet spot, which appears to be mild stress such as low intensity walking to not get a blood sugar spike. I will be re-reading my notes on ketones as I may not have much spillage. I went medium on weights around 30 minutes ago (no cardio), really interested to see results in the morning. I love this N=1 stuff.

I have mixed in a little dry fasting for the last 2 days i.e. no fluid up to 13.00 yesterday and 11.00 am today. After this fast I will do an OMAD day dry fasted, several times to build up to 2 days.

 

[bulkbiker]

This is an interesting area. There clearly is a sweet spot, which appears to be mild stress such as low intensity walking to not get a blood sugar spike. I will be re-reading my notes on ketones as I may not have much spillage. I went medium on weights around 30 minutes ago (no cardio), really interested to see results in the morning. I love this N=1 stuff.

I have mixed in a little dry fasting for the last 2 days i.e. no fluid up to 13.00 yesterday and 11.00 am today. After this fast I will do an OMAD day dry fasted, several times to build up to 2 days.

I've never tried dry fasting .. maybe one for next week!

 

[Mbaker]

Check-in @ 73 hours
I was going to go for a walk but...

 

[bulkbiker]

Check-in @ 73 hours
I was going to go for a walk but...
View attachment 29408

Wow!

 

[Mbaker]

I've never tried dry fasting .. maybe one for next week!

A 3 day dry fast is meant to be the equivalent of a 7 day water fast. There is a hard dry fast - literally no contact with any water, even the brushing of teeth, and a soft dry fast where no liquids can be ingested but the brushing of teeth and a wash is permitted. Anyone reading this should not try a dry fast without building up first and research, especially if kidney problems exist - MAKE SURE YOU RESEARCH THOROUGHLY.

 

[Fenn]

Check-in @ 73 hours
I was going to go for a walk but...
View attachment 29408

And you are doing this on purpose?

Dry fasting threads to follow?

This is like watching self harm, I think this is dodgy ground guys

 

[bulkbiker]

And you are doing this on purpose?

Dry fasting threads to follow?

This is like watching self harm, I think this is dodgy ground guys

As Mike and I are both fully aware of what we are doing I think that your definition of "self harm" is going a bit too far.
Dry fasting is a bit "out there" maybe but may be effective in small doses. Probably only as "out there" as carnivore.. would you class that as self harm too?
Why so judgemental?

 

[Fenn]

Sorry, ill butt out

 

[bulkbiker]

Sorry, ill butt out

No need to do that but I'm just interested in why you think it's "self harm"?
I thought you were interested.... I gave you a fair bit of the rationale and then you describe us as "self harming". Just sounds a rather extreme reaction that I'm happy to debate with you.

 

[bulkbiker]

Ok update for tonight after a dinner of 4 poached eggs with 20g of butter
BG 4.2
Ketones 3.9
Slightly down from before but not a great difference

Todays intake

So let's see what the weight loss fairy brings (or doesn't ) tomorrow..