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Fasting-Mimicking Diet Promotes Ngn3-Driven β-Cell Regeneration to Reverse Diabetes

Discussion in 'Diabetes Discussions' started by Oldvatr, Feb 24, 2017.

  1. ickihun

    ickihun Type 2 · Master

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    Are you currently getting hunger panks? Don't train your body to ignore it as leptin gets confused. I eat something very tiny just to appease hunger so I'm more attune to hunger.
    Its healthy to feel hunger but not to constantly ignore it.
     
  2. Hoping4Cure

    Hoping4Cure Type 1 · BANNED

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    Currently? I'm not fasting today, so no. Starting FMD again tomorrow. It's just a simple matter of getting used to it. Fasting is a natural state of all living organisms and people who are afraid of doing it I think are scared for no reason. And this isn't even true water fasting anyway, it's kind of a hack.

    You can get used to fasting little by little, skip a meal here and there. The tips in this thread are gold:

    https://www.crsociety.org/topic/11883-valter-longo-interviewed-by-rhonda/

    Of course those people aren't type 1, but for type 2s whose livers can release glucagon in the presence of low blood sugar, I think it's relatively safe.

    I used to panic when there was a delay and my feeding was delayed, but...fear is the mind-killer.

    If you use mind over matter, and don't OD on insulin, you can survive a long time without food, days, weeks, months even. It's mostly a mental thing I think.

    Sure you should probably avoid driving the first time you try it, but I'd also say it's dangerous to drive after a heavy workout at the gym too, for the same reason. If you adopt a Zen-like attitude, release the need for constant over-nourishment and excessive meal size and frequency that is hoisted upon us by the food industry and its swamp critters (a sure conflict of interest there), then you can liberate yourself from being a slave to a diet which is undoubtedly causing harm to millions of people daily, resulting in their premature death, not to mention many other health problems.

    Getting rid of the 5-6 meals a day + snacking mentality is something that's even hard to convince my girlfriend of, who is healthy, skinny and health conscious. Propaganda pushed on people over many years has that effect, even in the presence of contrary evidence people do not change their minds readily. There is an inertia there, which takes effort and likely years to turn around. I am still thinking of the conversation I had yesterday with someone who was convinced she "couldn't possibly do that" (live off two avocados a day for five days). And this is a strong, accomplished, intelligent, healthy, non-diabetic. So the resistance to even the idea is very strong. Yet still...I think it's a question of baby steps. To non-diabetics, I'd definitely suggest: Jump in, the water's fine. Maybe to type 2s as well, at least non-insulin dependent ones where there is no risk of an insulin OD by accident.

    For type 1s there is surely some risk there but it's manageable and reasonable to me. If you have good enough control to have a low hypo frequency, then that's good. The main thing I do is just frequently monitor my sugars (which I do normally regardless), and lowering insulin intake to match lower calories per day, keep sugar pills and even glucagon handy just in case. Plus have someone watch over you, and don't do strenuous exercise. I also don't drive a car during FMD, just to be safe.
     
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  3. ickihun

    ickihun Type 2 · Master

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    I'm looking forward to eating less.
    I will bed in my new basal then reduce in keeping with skipped meals. Novarapid for meals only. I've love to drop breakfasts again. They are so inconvient for me. Then no food after 6-7pm. So 2 meals would work for my lifestyle. One when I'm really busy.
    I don't want to have to think about feeding time, all of the time. I'm hoping a seperate basal can help me with that. Just a few more weeks to wait to be trained on it.
     
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  4. Hoping4Cure

    Hoping4Cure Type 1 · BANNED

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    Good luck! I know this is really hard for every one, of both types. Dieting isn't easy in general, but I really find compliance to FMD much easier than to a strict daily regime, because it's periodic and re-feeding is a terrific carrot to balanced the hunger stick. I not only want to cure my disease, but live a long, healthy life after that too, so this is wonderful. Of course eventually they'll have FMD's effects available in a pill, but it seems absurd to me to wait for an expensive pharmaceutical solution when fasting literally saves you money and has plenty of evidence over the past century in support of its medical benefits. (caloric restriction's benefits are really amazing actually. Not prescribing it is practically medical malpractice at this point).
     
  5. Hoping4Cure

    Hoping4Cure Type 1 · BANNED

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    Eating breakfast every day just because people tell us to do that, without listening to our own bodies and results, is a big mistake and I'm glad I feel liberated to completely ignore the common wisdom, e.g. people telling me I should eat three squares a day + a bunch of snacks.

    Lowering insulin TDD seems like a winner to me now, I've always tried focusing on lower A1C instead but insulin toxicity vs glucotoxicity could be traded off by accepting a higher A1C, reducing my total insulin dose and overall calories, and increasing my insulin sensitivity (both through long-duration running and through lowering exogenous insulin intake). Of course I'll have to monitor ketone levels to avoid DKA, but I have strips for that.
     
  6. Hoping4Cure

    Hoping4Cure Type 1 · BANNED

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    I can't get over how I've gotten my disease management goals all wrong this whole time. That link is a game-changer for my manic fixation on achieving a super low A1C. It is much better to use much less insulin daily than have an A1C in the right zone, if I want to live long. Totally flips my entire strategy backwards. And made me just do a 180 in terms of stopping verapamil, which protects beta cells against glucotoxicity. If my goal is to restore beta cell mass and function, then it seems counterproductive to allow myself a much more lax A1C target (and consequently less testing and less insulin taken per day) and stop verapamil at the same time.

    I have to thank this website for exposing me to some new ideas, which I might never have discovered. It's good to shake things up. I'm cutting my insulin in half immediately, and won't make any corrections unless my BG is higher than 10. Bernstein was right all along it turns out. (he suggests in his book never making corrections due to incorrect insulin-to-carb estimates, but adjusting it slightly for the next meal). I'm going to have to unlearn being such a manic and frequent tester. My health should get better with less insulin TDD, due to reduced insulin resistance which I presume may type 1s have. Then I can focus on the benefits of caloric restriction + fasting + regen side of things. If I want to lower my A1C in the future, I'll do it by lowering daily calories, not by taking more insulin.
     
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    #126 Hoping4Cure, Apr 17, 2017 at 12:41 AM
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
  7. Living-by-the-beach

    Living-by-the-beach Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    @Mr Whippy

    Nice chart. While I am person who "Enjoys" (sarcasm) T2DM I am fascinated by the progress we diabetics have been making. My coping mechanism has been that of exercise and CR. Since September I've been on a cycling odyssey that has taken me about 4000 miles of riding or put another way its almost taken me from Los Angeles to Azores on my way to London.

    I calorie restricted yesterday but I am may be doing the FMD (too lax). I've been more into the 5+2 of Mosley over the last few weeks + my daily ride. As I can just extend my fasting I'm going to cut back on cream in my coffee (max two cups/ day) for this week and up my water intake + add a daily advocado + some nuts for the micro-nutrients As for the hunger I find when I eat less than normal I am less hungry. For me its the blood glucose crashes post eating that make me hungry through out the day. .

    So from the experience of this thread what has been the optimal FMD diet
     
  8. Mr Whippy

    Mr Whippy Type 1 · Active Member

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    Update time from my 2nd FMD session -

    Fairly disappointing.

    Despite some early signs around day 3 that I might be able to reduce my basal rates some more it appears not so, though I have slightly reduced my bolus ratio for my evening meal, so not all lost. I was quietly hoping to repeat my success from my first session but it hasn't worked out for some reason, however I have managed to hold onto my gains from that first FMD that I did in early March.

    Looking back I think I know where I messed up though.

    Unlike some others on here I do find the FMD to be hard work, first 2 days not so bad but after that it's just a grind for me and I can't wait for breakfast on day 6. It's do-able, but I find it hard graft. Each day seems to last forever.

    On my first session most days were 1 large avocado, a handful of mixed nuts, and 1/2 a bowl of homemade veggie broth (no potato or starch).

    Second session much the same except that I had 3 or 4 days with the same recipe broth, but this time with some chicken in it, I had made a large pan full of this a few days before and I wanted to use it up as I hate throwing good food away. I think this was my mistake as the chicken would have probably pushed me over the protein limit for the FMD.

    As a reminder, this is the basic requirement for Dr Longo's Fasting Mimicking Diet - Taken from https://thequantifiedbody.net/fast-mimicking-diet/

    The nutrition rules established for the Fast Mimicking Diet are:


    • Each month (3 / 4 cycles in studies): 25 days eat normally, 5 days FMD
    • High micronutrient content (i.e. greater than 50 percent by weight) from natural sources
    • Ketogenic: Restricted protein and a high percentage of calories from fat

    In practice this translates to:


    • Day 1: 54% norm caloric intake 1,090 kcal (10% protein, 56% fat, 34% carb)
    • Days 2–5: 34% norm caloric intake 725 kcal (9% protein, 44% fat, 47% carb)
    So 9% Protein.... Hmmmm, I think I screwed that with the chicken in the soup.

    Basically I was "winging it" and I should have been paying more attention to the details I reckon.

    So I'm going to have another go, starting on Monday, and I will resolve to stick by the rules properly this time ! - Lesson learned.

    On another slightly different angle - I just did a Google search and typed in "FMD" and noticed that nearly all the hits at the top of the page were for something called the "Fast Metabolism Diet" which is something completely different - Mainly aimed at weight loss as far as I can see, so not really applicable here. Just be aware if you are digging around the net for more info.

    Cheers - Dave.
     
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    #128 Mr Whippy, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:40 PM
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  9. Hoping4Cure

    Hoping4Cure Type 1 · BANNED

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    Chicken broth doesn't seem to have a huge amount of protein, like 1.6g per cup:

    http://www.livestrong.com/article/368293-chicken-broth-nutrition/

    But it's definitely a good idea to stick as close to the suggested diet as possible (or the same proportions but even lower total daily calories to make the starvation effect more pronounced). Chicken broth does make me feel full(er) though, so I'd stick to veggy broths (ideally make your own) and try to mimic Prolon as much as possible. From what I gather Prolon is really tweaked to a high degree of precision to maximize this effect.

    A more worrying thing, for me, this morning I woke up and used a urine ketone strip to check my levels and they were sky high! Like the maximum, 16. They're back in the moderate range now, but yesterday were basically undetectable. I must have made a mistake, maybe it's the tiny amount of cream I used in my coffee that took me back out of ketosis.

    Man, this is indeed tricky. I'm going to check more into it, definitely want to avoid DKA.

    It's weird though because I didn't do anything substantially different than last time, basically the same 2 avocados a day and a few almonds here and there (which I realize it likely too many calories total, I'm going to have only 1 tomorrow then water fast on my last day).

    Definitely going to see the doc soon to check all my blood levels properly. I feel great though, only one mild headache since the start of this session.

    I think every session is likely to get easier as my body becomes more keto-adapted (more efficiently use the calories from fat), so I'll probably have to lower my calories properly. I'm still hoping to get the proper Prolon FMD food from the doctors, anyway we'll see what they say.
     
  10. Living-by-the-beach

    Living-by-the-beach Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    @Mr Whippy

    Our bodies aren't linear. One day I woke up and discovered I was suffering from T2DM. Since then I've put more and more effort into putting my T2DM into remission. I've lost 55 lbs and I've not lost my DM yet. It's a long journey. In the last 7 months I've cycled 4000 miles give or take to keep my T2DM under control. Trust me I have an appreciation of how tough it is to fast. I can't do it all the time either.

    Yet you intuitively know how important fasting might be to achieve your goals. There's a great deal of knowledge on Longo's mentor Dr Roy Walford who lived for as CR'er ( Calorie Restriction) in a dome in Arizona for two years. Its seems obvious that the weaker cells in his liver and pancreas would have died while he was in CR. Yet when he started re-feeding his body these organs would regrow new cells. That's the premise.

    There are many people who advocate fasting Dr Jason Fung Dr Michael Mosley Professor Valter Longo Professor Roy Taylor (restrictive diet). No one of these learned gentlemen has an absolute lock on "The definitive solution" to diabetes. That you're hanging on to gains from your first FMD is proof positive that you are moving in the right direction.

    Give yourself a break and try a week or two of 5+2? So plan finish eating a meal of an evening and then have tea/coffee the next morning for breakfast then Bovrils thru out the day + a couple of clear consomme soups to finish it off. A walk around the block at the end of the day + early to bed with a good book. Wake the following day and try and make it till lunch time when you break the fast. This shorter fast may help you condition to longer fasts. You're not trying to lose visceral fats. You're trying to wake up organs that aren't working as designed.. I sense we have a similar gritted determination to try and figure out what is going on in our bodies..

    I am off to my local church shortly I will pray again for all our diabetic needs. The Lord knows only too well we need help here for the chronic conditions we live with..It has been written that Jesus fasted for 40 days and nights himself. I'm sure it is safe to fast. Its just difficult..

    If I 've said anything offensive here PM me and I'll modify my post..

    LBB
     
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  11. Mr Whippy

    Mr Whippy Type 1 · Active Member

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    I think if they analysed my chicken & veg broth they would find a fair bit more than that. Each bowl would have had roughly 1/3rd of a large chicken breast in it, which works out at 15 to 20g protein per serving, and that's just from the chicken alone.
    http://www.livestrong.com/article/401237-the-calorie-count-for-a-boneless-skinless-chicken-breast/

    Should have realised at the time.... Never mind. There's always next week..... I need to get down to Avocados "R" us this weekend !

    Dave.
     
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  12. Living-by-the-beach

    Living-by-the-beach Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    @Mr Whippy

    Its a marathon, not a sprint. That your numbers are lower than from prior to the first FMD is the important point.. Next time I'm sure you'll do the best you can do next time around. That's all you can do..

    I had a good number this morning for my FBG but that number is now history. What's my number going to be tomorrow?? We've different diseases but related in trying to get ourselves healthy. Keep up the good work..
     
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  13. Mr Whippy

    Mr Whippy Type 1 · Active Member

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    Thanks for your input and your encouragement, However I've done plenty of 5:2 and it has really helped me get my weight down in the last couple of years. Done some cycling too but nowhere near your level ! I'm a fair weather recumbent rider. I find saddles to be a pain in the bum. ;)

    No, my goal here is to regain insulin production, even if only a little bit at a time, using the FMD method, and hopefully proving that there is some real value in it for T1's that can be gained outside of the lab in real world day to day conditions.

    So anything less than tricking the body into thinking it is in a "water fast" situation isn't going to cut the mustard here. Yes, I'm finding it tough going but if I can keep getting results like I did the first time round then the gains are worth the pain. If I keep on drawing blanks, like on my second fast, then I will think again.

    It's obvious from my last effort that even though I was in ketosis from 1 1/2 days all the way through to breaking the fast on the 6th day, and that I was very hungry for a lot of that time, it just wasn't good enough because of a few grams of protein.

    This time round, no meat. :cool:

    Dave.
     
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  14. Hoping4Cure

    Hoping4Cure Type 1 · BANNED

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    I expect my health is improving -- and I can feel it doing so -- even if only for the fact that I'm losing weight temporarily, then regaining most of it but not all, each time. And not only that, but insulin resistance going down is likely also helping my few working beta cells actually do their job, not to mention cutting my normal insulin TDD by a large amount should also reduce IR.

    I agree that each FMD session doesn't need to be 100% perfect, and it's not necessary for it to be perfect either, since FMD is already a compromise from the benefits of water fasting so I think it's more like shades of gray.

    Today for me is just one avocado then tomorrow is zero food until I break my pseudo-fasting. Can't wait!

    Doing this twice a month is going to get easier and easier I think. It's mostly a question of mind over matter, really. Tomorrow I'll try to book a visit to the type 1 research doctor who is following me, to check on all my levels. Hopefully I can convince him of the merits of repeated c-peptide level monitoring. This is really the number which could make heads turn, so I highly encourage anyone trying this who is type 1, to get their c-peptides checked one a month if their endocrinologists or GPs go for it. I've found GPs are usually reluctant to do that test since they aren't experts, although I think that checking a number against a reference value isn't all that controversial or requiring the expertise of a dedicated specialist.
     
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  15. Mr Whippy

    Mr Whippy Type 1 · Active Member

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    Wishing you the best of luck, and hope you get a C-Peptide test soon.

    I had one done about 6 months ago, so at least I have a baseline figure to go from. I have an appointment with my specialist on the 6th June and with a bit of luck I will have managed to fit in another 2 or 3 fasts in by then, and If I have made a decent reduction in my insulin requirements by then I will press for another C peptide to be done.

    Need to start tapering my coffee intake down tomorrow ready for starting session #3 on Monday.
    3 cups Friday, 2 on Saturday, 1 on Sunday......

    As for the diet, I think I will drop the broth and the nuts out of the equation and just do 2 avocados each day, with a little salt, and maybe a few green salad leaves. Keeping it simple.

    Dave.
     
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  16. Speedbird

    Speedbird Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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  17. Hoping4Cure

    Hoping4Cure Type 1 · BANNED

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    One hour left of my 4th FMD, looking forward to a nice IGF-1 inducing feast tonight :)
     
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  18. Living-by-the-beach

    Living-by-the-beach Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    @Hoping4Cure & @Mr Whippy

    I'm on day three of my FMD now. Started Friday night. Saturday FBG was 108mg/dl (good number) Sunday FBG 96 mg/dl (non-diabetic number "Thrilled") feet felt fantastic. Today FBG was 115mg/dl (okay good control, but not a great number) I think I did too much 'mimicking" with my FMD. I had black coffee two handful of mixed nuts and whole large avocado and an apple (too much food yesterday). Weight this morning is 196lbs or 14 stones (4 stone less than my worst level) but I've seen a trend in two sub 100mg/dl (non diabetic) numbers in last 7 days.

    Still as Hoping4Cure has mentioned the FMD doesn't need to be perfect. I am thinking of pushing it to Friday (if I can) my BMI is 24 currently so I've weight I can afford to lose. I've been checking my blood pressure which has been very good too resting pulse was 62 this morning. (I've cycled 4000 miles since September). Yet I think the fasting is way more powerful than the exercising. The original Professor Roy Taylor 2011 T2DM study was to mimic a bariatric surgery (without the surgery) https://campus.recap.ncl.ac.uk/Panopto/Pages/Viewer.aspx?id=c3bef819-e5f4-4a55-876f-0a23436988ed and Professor Longo has done his studies to talk of autophagy and subsequent regrowth. Dr Micheal Mosley, Dr Mercola, Dr Jason Fung, then (at least for me) Jesus fasted for 40 days & nights it seems all to make sense. All these experts are all pointing in the same direction. Fasting is good for us.. Get one's body to consume the dodgy cells and regrow new ones.. Trying to make it to Friday. If I feel funny along the way I can always give in...
     
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  19. DavidGrahamJones

    DavidGrahamJones Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Probably not empirical evidence.
     
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  20. Living-by-the-beach

    Living-by-the-beach Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Agreed that there is no empirical evidence from Jesus. OTOH There's plenty of empirical evidence in Professor Longo's & Taylor's work nonetheless, along with clinical experience of Doctors Mosley, Fung, & Mercola.
     
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