Fung vs. Taylor - what worked for you?

[Larissima]

I have read a number of positive testimonials for the Newcastle Diet on this forum (and some not that positive - possibly due to user error, rather than the diet itself). On the other hand, even though there are a few vocal proponents of Intermittent Fasting, I haven't seen that many posters attributing their diabetes reversal (or remission) to IF*. There is a lot of convincing evidence on Dr Fung's blog, of course, but it would be interesting to find out how IF works for the wider audience.

After all, the ND should not be working, according to Dr Fung's Calorie Reduction as Primary theory, yet it seems to do so. Is it possible that once people start eating normally, the fat loss reverses? Or does it really only work for people who have not been obese, just had some visceral fat around the liver and pancreas? Who has successfully completed the ND and kept the results (lowered BG, normal to low BMI) for a number of years?

Conversely, who has reduced their BG (and weight/fat mass) using IF? Which version, and for how long?

I would like to clarify that I'm not looking for arguments against either of these approaches, just the positives that worked for you. I am at present able to control my daily BG values due to following LCHF, however my fasting BG is consistently above the normal range (between 5.6 and 7). I have also lost a significant amount of weight, but this has now tapered off even though I still need to shed at least 4st/25 kg. I am trying to decide whether ND or IF would be best for me at this stage. Please weigh in with your experiences.

* If I have missed a big section of the forum, please direct me to it - I am only aware of @AloeSvea 's and @Winnie53 's threads

 

[Indy51]

There are a lot of different threads about the Newcastle Diet going back many years. It should be possible to search for them.

There also seem to be quite a few tales of success, followed by some sort of personal crisis entailing falling off the wagon, weight regain and then another try at duplicating the initial success - I've been reading at the forum for a while and apart from @Pipp and @Andrew Colvin I can't recall any others who are still around and still having normal BG levels. There may be others that I've forgotten and if so, my apologies.

My own experience is that my diabetes has not reversed nor is it likely to. I can, however, keep mostly normal BG by following a LCHF diet. I believe some people have experimented with increasing carbohydrates and succeeded, but I'm not prepared to go through a period of faffing about with increased testing, measuring, etc. to try and add more carbs back, especially since my health has improved so much from eliminating grains - I honestly don't miss them, so what's the point? Ditto to potato - it just gives me joint pain.

Through a lot of experimenting, I know I'm pretty much limited to 25g of carbs at any one meal, so realistically around 75g max per day.

The reason I tried IF was (1) my increasing fasting BG which was too high for my targets and (2) I'd regained some of the weight lost on diagnosis and wanted to get it under control and then maintain the loss. IF has worked really well for that. It has had the added advantage of increasing my insulin sensitivity in the morning. Before IF I was only eating up to 12g of carbs - now I can eat the same as at other meals without exceeding 7.8.

If I really wanted to go all out, maybe I'd try the Newcastle Diet - but I honestly don't see the point - I'm happy with the way I look and don't want to lose any more weight. I have no interest in looking like Skeletor and there's a fair bit of evidence that carrying a bit of extra weight in my age group is an advantage.

I have a problem believing that anyone can just keep dieting down to find their personal fat threshold - what if it turns out to be a weight you wouldn't want to be at or couldn't reasonably sustain? There seem to be some fairly unrealistic expectations that everyone who tries the Newcastle Diet will succeed - which as far as I know Professor Taylor never claimed would be the case, yet people seem to have this "I just need to try harder" philosophy that seems pretty unhealthy to me.

What if your pancreas has lost beta cell function permanently - there seems to be evidence that it does happen and if you're one of those people, starving yourself down to a weight you would probably have a hell of a time maintaining seems self-defeating to me.

So given that my personal fat threshold apparently has not been reached and my carb tolerance except at breakfast seems to be pretty much unchanged from when I was a lot heavier at initial diagnosis, my personal decision is to stop chasing the dream of a reversal as it seems pretty pointless and thus far my condition seems to be under control without medication.

 

[Lamont D]

I have read a number of positive testimonials for the Newcastle Diet on this forum (and some not that positive - possibly due to user error, rather than the diet itself). On the other hand, even though there are a few vocal proponents of Intermittent Fasting, I haven't seen that many posters attributing their diabetes reversal (or remission) to IF*. There is a lot of convincing evidence on Dr Fung's blog, of course, but it would be interesting to find out how IF works for the wider audience.

After all, the ND should not be working, according to Dr Fung's Calorie Reduction as Primary theory, yet it seems to do so. Is it possible that once people start eating normally, the fat loss reverses? Or does it really only work for people who have not been obese, just had some visceral fat around the liver and pancreas? Who has successfully completed the ND and kept the results (lowered BG, normal to low BMI) for a number of years?

Conversely, who has reduced their BG (and weight/fat mass) using IF? Which version, and for how long?

I would like to clarify that I'm not looking for arguments against either of these approaches, just the positives that worked for you. I am at present able to control my daily BG values due to following LCHF, however my fasting BG is consistently above the normal range (between 5.6 and 7). I have also lost a significant amount of weight, but this has now tapered off even though I still need to shed at least 4st/25 kg. I am trying to decide whether ND or IF would be best for me at this stage. Please weigh in with your experiences.

* If I have missed a big section of the forum, please direct me to it - I am only aware of @AloeSvea 's and @Winnie53 's threads

After I had my 72 (80) fasting test in hospital, it made me realise that intermittent fasting was quite a good idea for me. It gives my body a rest and kept my blood glucose levels in normal range. I have a fasting day once a week.
This is not a option that is necessary or compulsory. It is voluntary. I do not need to do this because of being in ketosis permanently. My weight loss over the past couple of years, is due to not eating carbs or sugar. Not the fasting, though it might help nudge it along!

 

[Brunneria]

I can't comment on the ND, or Fung's version of IF, since experience has taught me that I am ideologically and physically opposed to low cal (esp v low cal) and hunger.

However, after a couple of months of compressing my less than 50g carbs a day into lunch and an early evening meal, and only having fat at brekkie (effectively an intermittent fast + a coffeencream at 8am) I found that my annoyingly persistent Dawn Phenomenon has dropped by a whole 0.5mmol/l on average. This has now been maintained for about 5 months.

I am very pleased about this, since nothing else I have ever done has had such a sustained effect on my DP.

So I am very open to the Fung Thing - provided it doesn't involve me getting Hungry, and tipping over into a reactive hypoglycaemic feeding frenzy.

I think I am a lot less convinced by the ND.
From what I have seen on the forum, almost nobody does is according to PRofessor Taylor's guidelines. They make up quantities and diet and methods as they go along. They almost never get medical supervision. They start with huge hopes of reversal, and skinnifying, and expectations.

There was one thread where several people posted in dismay and concern that their BG was still spiking even after doing the ND for 8 weeks, and the tendency to regain the weight was bothering them. I am, of course, paraphrasing. The thread tailed off quite quickly, and I wonder what happened to them. Maybe they will post here, and say what the long term effect has been.

 

[Indy51]

Just another thought.

I think the success of any way of eating will depend on the person's relationship with food going into it - whether it's bariatric surgery, ND, Fung, LCHF, low calorie, whatever. If your relationship to food is an emotional one, the prospect of falling off the wagon and weight regain will always be a possibility unless you deal with the emotional issue first. May sound really basic, but I've seen too many people fall into the trap since I've been reading at diabetes forums

 

[Larissima]

Thank you all for your contribution, it has been very helpful. I am a long-term LC convert (except when falling off the wagon!) so any additional modification (ND or IF) would still be LC, and I'm also fully aware that I will never be able to indulge in high carbs, regardless of how well the diet goes.

 

[Totto]

I do 16/8 IF because I'm not hungry in the morning. Have done for years but didn't know it had a name. I've also been low carbing for years, of normal weight since starting on thyroid meds and eventually developed diabetes as expected due to heavy genetic heritage.

 

[brettsza]

I did nd about 4 to 5 months ago, I could be wrong but about that time, and while I was doing nd I decided to do IF. I don't have a lot of weight on me, but even on low carb I gained a lot of weight post diagnosis so thought of doing it purely from the perspective of weight maintenance than anything else so I skip breakfast and lunch is mostly salad and some meat and dinner has some carbs and salad, I initially gained about 4 kilos post nd and stayed there more or less, my figures are good still from 4.5 to 6 but even after a carb heavy meal I don't see anything more than 6.5 and I am back to 5's inside 2 hours. Has it worked, I don't know. My first a1c was diabetic and since then I was quite well behaved and had a massive drop in my a1c. Never looked back since, I am still on low carb but I do treat myself occasionally, nuts cheese and water being my best friend for snacks and salads for fibre.

I do exercise as well but I would say moderate, I walk about 3 to 4 miles a day and have just started running.
I can't say who's good or what's better but I am following both approaches.

I am not able to post anything now a days as just had a baby and have been very busy with him but I keep reading as much as I can.

 

[Larissima]

I am not able to post anything now a days as just had a baby and have been very busy with him but I keep reading as much as I can.

Congratulations!

 

[Pipp]

I agree with Brunneria regarding ND. I first read the academic research papers around 5 years ago. Discussed with GP, and got support, despite being 6 years post T2 diagnosis. Followed to the letter the recommendations, which at that time did not include the consumption of vegetables, so was Total Food Replacement. BG levels were non-diabetic within a week. Have remained so, four years, but last HbA1c was hovering at the upper limit. Have regained almost half of the weight originally lost despite staying low calorie, but weight has been stable for over a year. Would still like to lose more weight, but primary goal is to maintain non-diabetic BG. In early days post ND was able to eat copious quantities of a variety of carbs without BG spikes, but believe this caused weight gain. Now stick with low carb moderate fat diet.

I believe that some people have interpreted the later Newcastle research as meaning they can just lower calorie intake, and some then deviate from the plan by intermittently having days off and such. Also, many see it as a miracle cure taking 8 weeks to implement, when in reality ND is probably best used not as a 'quick fix' but as a start to a whole new way of eating. I.e. Use ND to lower 'personal fat threshold', then avoid raising that threshold by adapting diet. No use returning to previous diet, as this will negate any advantage gained.

 

[AloeSvea]

it would be interesting to find out how IF works for the wider audience.

After all, the ND should not be working, according to Dr Fung's Calorie Reduction as Primary theory, yet it seems to do so. Is it possible that once people start eating normally, the fat loss reverses? Or does it really only work for people who have not been obese, just had some visceral fat around the liver and pancreas? Who has successfully completed the ND and kept the results (lowered BG, normal to low BMI) for a number of years?

Conversely, who has reduced their BG (and weight/fat mass) using IF? Which version, and for how long?

I would like to clarify that I'm not looking for arguments against either of these approaches, just the positives that worked for you. I am at present able to control my daily BG values due to following LCHF, however my fasting BG is consistently above the normal range (between 5.6 and 7). I have also lost a significant amount of weight, but this has now tapered off even though I still need to shed at least 4st/25 kg. I am trying to decide whether ND or IF would be best for me at this stage. Please weigh in with your experiences.

* If I have missed a big section of the forum, please direct me to it - I am only aware of @AloeSvea 's and @Winnie53 's threads

What I like about having tried both NDing and IFing (and now - periodic fasting as an IF method) is it has given me a close-up on my body, and how I believe the T2D operates within me, and therefore how to best help me along to best health. For instance, and a la both Fung and Taylor, I believe I have fat on my liver, still, and I store fat on my liver at the drop of a carbohydrate hat. Both theories fit - fat on the liver/Taylor, and insulin resistance/Fung - no need for 'either/or' in my opinion. Fits too with the environment and gene causal mix thing, is my understanding.

I really do believe the only way to tell what will work for a particular individual, and their diabetic bods!, is to experiment with these different methods of diabetes control. Gather information about your own diabetic bod. Change behaviours (diet, exercise, medication), note changes, try things out. Keep meticulous records. (Whether with cool apps I have seen in the forum, or old-fashioned methods like pen and paper like I do.) Simplistic I know! But still probably true. Give it a go. Either or, or both. Maybe it helps to have loved biology at school? (Or how open one is to trial and error?) Who knows!

Find out through trial and error and blood glucose testing about how your pancreas is dealing with insulin production and how sensitive to insulin your cells are (I take it - from the post-meal readings), and to food generally. How your liver is doing with reading insulin signals, and/or whether you are producing much insulin at night/fasting in the first place (the Fasting Blood Glucose reading - my nemesis, too, as it is.) And then experiment with ways to target those functions. If possible!

IFing, along with the baseline-treatment low carbing, seems to be very popular with those of us who have persistently higher than wanted FBGs, for instance.

Since trying out both of the the ND, and IF methods (the latter with low carbing but wish I had done it from the start) I talk about my liver being bung. As it is those FBGs that get me, too. As I wander around in my own diabetic life I imagine I will be tweaking carbs, having a diet-and-exercise dialogue with what I believe is a permanently bung liver with bung liver glucose dumps, and trying to be as healthy as reflected in my BG levels as I can muster.

I also see it, for myself, as trying to put right three decades of a fatty liver and insulin resistance. I'm working on the patience factor! But I don't see 'reversal' on my own horizon either. (Yep - two months on low-calorie put pay to that fantasy for sure.) Just be as healthy as I can be, considering. I do use the word 'remission' with my diabetes nurse regarding this year's fluctuations, and with family members and friends who to an HBA1c reading is meaningless, when I discuss my health. But I don't think I see it as remission or not myself anymore. With my own T2D I think it is more like being on a spectrum of health, which I travel (between, up and down! In and out) on.

And I cannot overestimate the positive contribution of this forum, in contributing to different methods and experiments to try, and the all important - analysis of one's own results! Not to the mention the long-term results and effects one can see for individuals and methods, in the forum.

 

[Larissima]

Again, thank you all for sharing your experiences! Reading this thread has reinforced what I have already been thinking, and that is that ND is not for me. At least, not at this stage, when am still so far from a "normal" BMI. I have also gone through periods of low-cal dieting followed by binging, in the past, and can see myself failing on the ND.

IF, however, I have also tried in the past, and had some success with it. I would have had more success if I'd kept to low -carb throughout, but I chose to listen to the "eat anything you want" on the non-fasting days and soon the fast days too. Ultimately, the whole regime "didn't work for me".

Well, since last week I have incorporated 4:3 IF into my LCHF diet, and have already seen two types of benefit. Firstly, the morning after a fast (which, for me, is a day with one 500 cal meal in the afternoon) my FBG has been lower by 0.5 - 1.0 mmol/L. Secondly, this regime has restarted my weight loss again, which is very welcome! It is possible that I was just experiencing a plateau, and that the fat loss would have resumed on its own - but I find Intermittent Fasting worth it for the BG effects alone.

A little tweak that has helped me was avoiding dairy (butter, cheese and cream), i.e. not having any at home. I love those foods maybe a little too much, as they seem to trigger overeating for me when freely available. Without delicious cheeses and butter to be tempted by in between meals, it was easy to IF! (And I had my fill at a cheese restaurant for our anniversary! )