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Goodbye

A long time ago, in a galaxy far away, I quit a forum I had been frequenting a lot. It was a forum for a particular hobby.

My decision to quit, about which I had started a forum thread, was met with all sorts of derision, including the usual "don't let the door hit you on the way out" and the, also usual, "if you want to leave, why don't you just stop posting, instead of doing it in this public way?" I barely participated in the ensuing thread, but was really surprised at the venom.

My feeling ever since then has been that it is almost impossible to announce one's departure without being misunderstood, or accused of grandstanding, or whatever.

It was good to have you here @Tannith and very gracious of you to thank the forum for the help it provided you.
 
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Another one bites the dust?
Take care and good luck with your continuing diabetes journey
All the best
 
@Tannith I was going to ask what has happened. Please don't go - the site needs people not just with LCHF experience but those that have learnt from VLCD diets to so we can correct those who continue to bash anything that isn't lchf. Don't go!
 
lucylocket61 said:
Why?
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The story of the old lady in Wales worries me. I have seen no evidence at all that it is safe to eat a diet that contains 60% fat, as does the low carb high fat diet. Neither have I seen any evidence that it is safe to eat large quantities of any one of the individual types of fat. On the contrary, there are countless warnings against eating anything but minimal amounts of saturated fats. T2s have 2 to 4 times the risk of cardiovascular disease compared to ordinary people, and 80% of T2s die of cardiovascular disease. Yes, carbs are likely to raise our blood sugars but there are other ways of keeping BGs down. Vlc diets are not suitable for everyone either, at least without medical supervision. Low blood sugar can make you faint and this could be dangerous for drivers and old/sick people who might fall on, say, stairs. A few people on here offer medical advice to others without having the faintest idea of their circumstances, or what their co-morbidities might be.They also constantly put down the opinions of GPs who have trained for 6 plus years, dieticians who have trained for four, and all the eminent scientists from the WHO, the FAO and a number of governments, who have been employed to devise the diets the HCPs recommend, and suggest ignoring their advice to patients whose medical notes they are familiar with. I am alarmed to see posters self importantly playing "doctors and nurses". with other people's lives. Sooner or later it will cause a death. Perhaps it already has. I feel embarrassed to be associated with a forum that allows people to do this. Having said that there are some great people on here and I have enjoyed reading about your experiences. Thank you.
 
Tannith said:
The story of the old lady in Wales worries me. I have seen no evidence at all that it is safe to eat a diet that contains 60% fat, as does the low carb high fat diet. Neither have I seen any evidence that it is safe to eat large quantities of any one of the individual types of fat. On the contrary, there are countless warnings against eating anything but minimal amounts of saturated fats. T2s have 2 to 4 times the risk of cardiovascular disease compared to ordinary people, and 80% of T2s die of cardiovascular disease. Yes, carbs are likely to raise our blood sugars but there are other ways of keeping BGs down. Vlc diets are not suitable for everyone either, at least without medical supervision. Low blood sugar can make you faint and this could be dangerous for drivers and old/sick people who might fall on, say, stairs. A few people on here offer medical advice to others without having the faintest idea of their circumstances, or what their co-morbidities might be.They also constantly put down the opinions of GPs who have trained for 6 plus years, dieticians who have trained for four, and all the eminent scientists from the WHO, the FAO and a number of governments, who have been employed to devise the diets the HCPs recommend, and suggest ignoring their advice to patients whose medical notes they are familiar with. I am alarmed to see posters self importantly playing "doctors and nurses". with other people's lives. Sooner or later it will cause a death. Perhaps it already has. I feel embarrassed to be associated with a forum that allows people to do this. Having said that there are some great people on here and I have enjoyed reading about your experiences. Thank you.
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I must have missed it, what happened to the lady in Wales? Couldn't find anything on google.

Sad to see you go. I agree with you that low carb diets aren't necessarily the best choice, and I dislike the 'cult following' they seemed to have gained, but that's all the more reason to stick around and share your own experiences! I personally eat moderate carb (100-150g per day), have tried low carb in the past and it didn't work for me, and I find it helpful to see other people on the forum with a similar diet achieving success, as well as sharing my own results. Maybe take a break for a couple of weeks? Whatever you decide, thanks for your contributions to the forums!
 
phdiabetic said:
I must have missed it, what happened to the lady in Wales? Couldn't find anything on google.

Sad to see you go. I agree with you that low carb diets aren't necessarily the best choice, and I dislike the 'cult following' they seemed to have gained, but that's all the more reason to stick around and share your own experiences! I personally eat moderate carb (100-150g per day), have tried low carb in the past and it didn't work for me, and I find it helpful to see other people on the forum with a similar diet achieving success, as well as sharing my own results. Maybe take a break for a couple of weeks? Whatever you decide, thanks for your contributions to the forums!
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its this thread: http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/low-carb-diabetes-site-in-trouble.128781/

I did some post stalking, and am now off to have a re-read of the thread myself.
 
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Tannith said:
The story of the old lady in Wales worries me. I have seen no evidence at all that it is safe to eat a diet that contains 60% fat, as does the low carb high fat diet. Neither have I seen any evidence that it is safe to eat large quantities of any one of the individual types of fat. On the contrary, there are countless warnings against eating anything but minimal amounts of saturated fats. T2s have 2 to 4 times the risk of cardiovascular disease compared to ordinary people, and 80% of T2s die of cardiovascular disease. Yes, carbs are likely to raise our blood sugars but there are other ways of keeping BGs down. Vlc diets are not suitable for everyone either, at least without medical supervision. Low blood sugar can make you faint and this could be dangerous for drivers and old/sick people who might fall on, say, stairs. A few people on here offer medical advice to others without having the faintest idea of their circumstances, or what their co-morbidities might be.They also constantly put down the opinions of GPs who have trained for 6 plus years, dieticians who have trained for four, and all the eminent scientists from the WHO, the FAO and a number of governments, who have been employed to devise the diets the HCPs recommend, and suggest ignoring their advice to patients whose medical notes they are familiar with. I am alarmed to see posters self importantly playing "doctors and nurses". with other people's lives. Sooner or later it will cause a death. Perhaps it already has. I feel embarrassed to be associated with a forum that allows people to do this. Having said that there are some great people on here and I have enjoyed reading about your experiences. Thank you.
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@Tannith - very heart felt message and as others have said you must stay to give that balance; that alternate view. Actually I find all of the things you have said above true but also it is just advice based on experience (in most cases) and I wouldn't want any of those variants stopped either - it is the richness of different experiences that certainly got my BG down. No way on earth would I have tried LCmoderateF without this site - I would be eating the eat well plate. Someone on this site asked where I had read about the ND diet - then the blood sugar diet. And the info on cholesterol has been eye opening.
 
Tannith said:
The story of the old lady in Wales worries me. I have seen no evidence at all that it is safe to eat a diet that contains 60% fat, as does the low carb high fat diet. Neither have I seen any evidence that it is safe to eat large quantities of any one of the individual types of fat. On the contrary, there are countless warnings against eating anything but minimal amounts of saturated fats. T2s have 2 to 4 times the risk of cardiovascular disease compared to ordinary people, and 80% of T2s die of cardiovascular disease. Yes, carbs are likely to raise our blood sugars but there are other ways of keeping BGs down. Vlc diets are not suitable for everyone either, at least without medical supervision. Low blood sugar can make you faint and this could be dangerous for drivers and old/sick people who might fall on, say, stairs. A few people on here offer medical advice to others without having the faintest idea of their circumstances, or what their co-morbidities might be.They also constantly put down the opinions of GPs who have trained for 6 plus years, dieticians who have trained for four, and all the eminent scientists from the WHO, the FAO and a number of governments, who have been employed to devise the diets the HCPs recommend, and suggest ignoring their advice to patients whose medical notes they are familiar with. I am alarmed to see posters self importantly playing "doctors and nurses". with other people's lives. Sooner or later it will cause a death. Perhaps it already has. I feel embarrassed to be associated with a forum that allows people to do this. Having said that there are some great people on here and I have enjoyed reading about your experiences. Thank you.
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Sorry to see anyone leave this forum as all forums need as much diversity as possible.
I would make a couple of points and I hope in the right sense.
The Welsh lady is pretty close to the edge of the Belljar and difficult to understand from what was written.
Very rarely have I seen any recommending 0 carbs on this forum, there are one or two but they are not that militant.
I used to be a fairly carby rich lad, baked bread and could eat rice for Scotland and probably combined with statins got classed T2. In my nativity I took this on my stride, I felt absolutely nothing. Bit of research suggested I mend my ways. Was not too keen on drugs, statins cured me of that. and I did find this forum. LCHF seemed like an alternative way with exercise, gave it a go and lo and behold BG was under control. GP and DN pretty thrilled and wished more of their patients could change their ways.

I hope I never pushed my views on anyone. What works for me might not work for everyone. I think the exercise bit is really important and not everyone can do that for various reasons and they will have to find another way.

Go in peace and wish you well.
 
@Tannith - sorry to hear you wish to leave. I do agree that no one should be giving medical advice because everyone on this forum would have different health issues and medical histories. I know that LCHF is viewed favourably, although I myself have tried this diet in the past and it didn't work for me. I now eat moderate carbs and focus more on portion control which seems to work better for me. You do need to do what is best for you. I'm in a few support groups for my various ailments, and it seems to be the same no matter where you are that some people will advocate a certain diet or treatment they prefer and tend to think others should do the same. I know people like to help others the best they can, but then I do agree that there is that line sometimes that is crossed. I was part of a support group once where the moderator thought he was a doctor I think. I posted a vent post and he replied giving me medical advice on how to treat my symptoms. I responded to say I only take medical advice from medical professionals and for that I was booted out of his support group. lol. But we need people with diverse backgrounds and treatments, etc as you never know what may be working for you could work well for someone else too. All we can do is share our experiences, and support others.... that's what these support groups are about. I wish you the best. :)
 
Fleegle said:
@Tannith - very heart felt message and as others have said you must stay to give that balance; that alternate view. Actually I find all of the things you have said above true but also it is just advice based on experience (in most cases) and I wouldn't want any of those variants stopped either - it is the richness of different experiences that certainly got my BG down. No way on earth would I have tried LCmoderateF without this site - I would be eating the eat well plate. Someone on this site asked where I had read about the ND diet - then the blood sugar diet. And the info on cholesterol has been eye opening.
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16255998
Abstract
Given the increased prevalence of obesity in the United States, despite reduced fat intake, there has been increasing interest in the effect of dietary fat on body weight, lipoproteins, and glycemic status. Despite predictions from epidemiologic and physiologic studies, recent prospective trials have demonstrated equivalent weight loss on high-fat versus low-fat diets. Nevertheless, the type of dietary fat consumed has substantially different effects on lipoproteins. Saturated fat raises high-density lipoprotein cholesterol but has unfavorable effects on total cholesterol, and has been associated with increased cardiovascular events. In contrast, unsaturated fats, and particularly omega-3 fatty acids, have the combined benefits of lowering serum cholesterol and raising high-density lipoprotein, as well as favorable effects on insulin resistance and inflammation; they also lower cardiovascular events in high-risk patients. Although current national guidelines modestly liberalize unsaturated fat consumption, important questions still remain about the optimal percentage of unsaturated fats in the diet.
 
Tannith said:
I have seen no evidence at all that it is safe to eat a diet that contains 60% fat, as does the low carb high fat diet. (Etc.)
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I agree with you. Even though I fit the decription you provide of people who advocate the LC option (although in my case not necessarily HF). It bothers me mightily that it goes against the advice given by medical professionals who have trained all their lives to "do no harm" and genuinely wish the best for their patients.

The scandal is that the LC(HF) option is left to float as a caricatured "fringe option" without a widely accepted scientific validation (or falsification). My doctor, who is in his sixties and thus has decades of experience in treating T2D, actually prescribed the LC option for me. And it worked. So, in a way, I don't have the "going against the advice of the doctor" shtick to deal with.

I am worried, perhaps as worried as you are, about the high-fat part of the equation. For three decades prior to my T2 diagnosis I ate a low-fat (but high-carb) diet. Even now that I have gone LC, I have not let go of the low-fat part of it. It actually works for me, although I am not sure why -- I have plenty of energy but it is not clear where it is coming from.

It is really complex and I wish you would stick around to battle it out, because it is controversial and it is good to have vigorous voices on all sides.
 
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I am low-ish carb but havent added fat to my diet. I now have full fat milk, cheese, the naturally occurring fat on meat and chicken, goose fat, olive oil and butter, instead of palm oil, sunflower oil, and all the fats in the biscuits and chocolate i used to eat. My cholesterol hasnt changed in 5 years of this. Proportionally my fats have remained the same, but the type has changed, as mentioned. My protein proportion hasn't changed either. The big change has been my carb intake, which is less than a third of what it previously was, over 5 years ago, when I was first diagnosed.
 
I was obese when diagnosed with type 2. My BMI was 33. Since then I have eaten a LCHF diet and lost 13 Kg so that I am no longer obese and well on the way to not being overweight. My fasting blood glucose levels have dropped from 13 to around 5.5 and my HbA1C has dropped from 99 to 43, despite me no longer taking any medication. My cholesterol has also dropped.

In terms of reversing type 2 diabetes my LCHF diet has been wildly successful. I have done a lot of research into diet and its effect on health and my conclusions are ...
  1. Eating too much carbohydrate makes you obese and causes type 2 diabetes
  2. Glucose spikes from eating too many carbs causes inflamation in the arteries resulting in heart disease and strokes
  3. Intermittent fasting improves health and can dramatically improve life expectancy
It is true that most people with diabetes die of heart disease or strokes, but that is not caused by eating fat. It is caused by eating too many carbs which raises blood glucose. Insulin stores this excess glucose as fat. Calcification of the arteries is the result of inflamation caused in part by frequent spikes in blood glucose after eating high carb food. 80% of people with heart attacks are people with glucose spikes or diabetes (who also suffer from glucose spikes). Alzheimer’s is also associated with excess insulin in the brain as a result of high glucose levels.


There is a lot of recent research on the effects of eating fat in your diet and the videos by Zoe Harcombe are useful. There is a lot of interesting material on this over on dietdoctor.com.
 
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I find comfort in the opinions of other leading cardiologists...
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/news/2017...d-in-worlds-top-medical-journal-98765670.html

https://www.docsopinion.com/78-2/
https://www.docsopinion.com/category/lifestyle/diet-and-nutrition/food/saturated-fats/

And having eaten more saturated over the last 2 years than the last 20...my lipid profiles haven't shown any deterioration..but of course our anecdotal experience have little to no clinical significance...

Overcoming our misguided fear of fats, fasting and ketosis in the context of a insulin lowering lifestyle unfortunately remains elusive for most. That is the reason the diabetes and obesity epidemic has gathered strength inspite of over 4 decades of low fat guidelines by trusted health organizations.
 
Tannith said:
I have enjoyed reading about your experiences.
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That's the important bit, people sharing experiences because I for one, a person who considered his serious dieting stage as when I stopped drinking alcohol 10 years ago failed completely following a diet suggested by the hospital dietician, Weight Watchers and even Tesco Diets. The strange thing was that I remember thinking while following a proper calorie restricted diet (500 calories less than BMR or even 500 calories less than RMR - excludes exercise level) how much food there was. In volume terms it seemed much more than I ate previously, and I wasn't losing any weight at all. I lost weight when I stopped taking Rosiglitazone (responsible for a huge weight gain as I didn't eat more or exercise less), then it stopped when I took Gliclazide and went up 10kgs even though my diet and exercise was constant. I have no doubt that medication was affecting my metabolism, what else is there if your diet and exercise stay the same and your weight increases?

I was eventually persuaded to lower carbs and that enabled me to throw away 3 different drugs and I lost weight. So, despite a GP's education and ongoing training I went against the guidelines and it worked for me. My GP is pretty good, although skeptical, she was delighted at the result and puts well done on my notes. That's just me, it worked for me. I always start with the assumption that the doctor knows best, until I see otherwise. I wouldn't advise anyone, I'm not a doctor, I just share my experiences, somebody might pick up on something and try it out. That weight loss eventually stopped even though I actually eat much less than my RMR, my GP can only say "you have a broken metabolism", well I wish she'd fix it for me.

What I have discovered is that I do lose weight when I go for the VLCal diet similar to the Newcastle diet, not especially easy and not really something I could keep up for more than 8 weeks. My GP says I'm one of the few patients she will trust trying the Newcastle, so I'm quite flattered. It's not for everyone and I have several friends and relatives who are type II and I will mention what I'm doing, but never advise.
 
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