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how many carbs is too few?

Discussion in 'Low-carb Diet Forum' started by miss miss, Jun 3, 2020.

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  1. JoKalsbeek

    JoKalsbeek Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    Steroids are used as an anti-inflammatory. Just so happens the body also makes them for other purposes, and that they trigger a response from the liver: It'll dump glucose. When our bodies have enough, the demand stops naturally... But when a steroid is ingested or injected, there's no off switch for a while, and the liver will keep on dumping for as long as the steroid's active. It can't distinguish between naturally produced steroids and the kind we take. Which can be quite inconvenient.

    If your BM's are loose, it is most likely metformin or sweeteners causing the problem. For me, metformin had me locked in the loo for weeks, until the nurse took me off them. (It's a side effect that should abate after 2 weeks. If it doesn't, it's not going to.). And artificial sweeteners are toxic to gut bacteria, which can cause the same. As can sugar alcohols. So it's a matter of finding out which is the culprit.
     
  2. miss miss

    miss miss Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    ok that was helpful - thank you
     
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  3. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Are you on any diabetes medication? Some can cause hypos if you reduce carbs too much while taking them.
     
  4. miss miss

    miss miss Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I tend to get high not low and i take metformin and i am super low carb because i do not want the insulin the doctor wants me to take. so with super low carb food i have readings of 5.2 so there is no point taking insulin as that would drop me to 3.2 - so that is my way to not take any insulin whatsoever
     
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  5. pdmjoker

    pdmjoker Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

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    I also thought diabetic ketoacidosis was essentially a problem for people with Type 1 (but if you now know the cause that's good.)
    If someone isn't eating carbs, then there's enough vit C in fresh meat to avoid scurvy, so a carnivore diet works. Some people just add salt and water but others more knowledgeable will be better able to give you info.
    Continuing on Metformin sounds slightly precarious - you certainly don't want a hypo while doing Low Carb - but sounds like you are keeping an eye on BG levels and know what you are doing.
     
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  6. Geordie_P

    Geordie_P Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    When I wrote that previous question, there was discussion as to whether you were T1 or T2, and no information in your profile: likewise there was no indication that you knew the cause of your DKA at that point, further complicating the context.
    If you were a T1 in the honeymoon period, then the carb situation could be very different to that of a T2 with 'triggered' DKA.
    This is the only reason I asked, and it seems like a perfectly relevant question. Apologies for any misunderstanding.
     
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  7. miss miss

    miss miss Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    i have a slice of lemon that I squeeze over my fish so there is at least that. thank you for your helpful post

    no problem
     
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  8. Goonergal

    Goonergal Type 2 · Moderator
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    Hi there. As a type 2 who is eating very low carb - I won’t say zero carb as even cream/cheese and other dairy products have some small amounts of carbs, and the odd vegetable (in the form of a few onions), or a few nuts/squares 90% chocolate sneak into my diet every now and then - my personal experience (and that of others following the same way of eating) is in direct contradiction to what you say.

    Since shortly after diagnosis I have followed a ketogenic diet, and for the last 18 months close to a carnivore diet (animal related products including meat, fish, eggs, cheese, butter, cream, some yoghurt and the odd plant based thing). My health has been completely transformed. Far from being ‘tired all day’, I have boundless energy, regularly complete long distance walks (20 miles+) in a water fasted state and have consistently held my HbA1c in the non-diabetic range for 3 years. I do not have diarrhoea (or constipation) and have improved blood pressure and all other health markers. Details in my signature.

    My point is in response to the OP’s query, in my opinion, there is no such thing as ‘too few carbs’. And if I have learned one thing since joining this forum it’s that there are as many ways of managing diabetes as there are members. What works for one may not work for another and indeed what is sustainable (in terms of enjoyment/palatability) for one may not be for another. And many of those achieving the health outcomes they want are doing it by challenging conventional ‘wisdom’ about what is ‘healthy’.
     
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  9. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    Hi,

    it looks as though you are making those statements and expressing those opinions based on a bit of internet reading, rather than personal long term experience of the subject.

    Many members here have been eating low carb or keto for years. So if you wish to make statements about their way of life, that contradict their own experiences then you should provide references. This is especially the case when you are addressing the person who started this thread, who is looking for reliable, experienced information. Since you cannot provide that from your own experience, please support your claims with links to reliable, experienced information sources.
     
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    #29 Brunneria, Jun 9, 2020 at 7:08 AM
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2020
  10. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Respectfully, what a load of rubbish.
     
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  11. ziggy_w

    ziggy_w Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Hi @CelalDari,

    It's wonderful that you want to help.

    However, what you write directly contradicts my personal experience. When I was first diagnosed, my GP said with blood sugars as high as mine, there would be no way around insulin. By reducing my carbs significantly (am sitting between 10g and 15g of carbs per day), I now have normal (not even prediabetic) blood sugar levels without any medication at all. Also, all other health markers (such as blood pressure, blood lipids, and markers for liver and kidney health) are all normal. Have you had a look at the results of the Virta Health studies on very low carb diets for T2s? Here is a link if you are interested https://www.virtahealth.com/outcomes. About half of the patients were able to drop all insulin. (Btw, these results were also published in peer-reviewed medical journals).

    In the same way, @miss miss's numbers seem to be showing that she is doing well on very few carbs and no insulin at all. So, coming back to your question @miss miss, I agree with the other posters that the evidence seems to indicate that as a T2 you can go as low carb as you are happy with. My suggestion in light of your recent hospitalization with DKA and high blood sugars would be to keep regularly monitoring your blood sugars as I am sure you are doing anyway.

    As fiber was mentioned, a ketogenic way of eating doesn't necessarily have to be low in fiber (mine definitely isn't). This having been said, I don't think the science on fiber is quite settled yet, especially in the context of a low carb diet. If you are interested, you might want to listen the following presentation by Zoe Harcombe, a Ph.D. in public health nutrition:

     
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    #31 ziggy_w, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:37 AM
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2020
  12. LaoDan

    LaoDan Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I would agree that a variety of fats would be beneficial, I.e. some fats from avocados, olives and chia seeds. I would also agree that adding fiber is great advice. Disagree on the carb count. At least during the correction phase.
     
  13. CelalDari

    CelalDari · Guest

    You are all having a go at me for simply reiterating the official advice diabetic clinics give. I have the email from my dietician if that’s any consolation, she said as a diabetic I’m already at a high risk of ketosis and shouldn’t do a low carbohydrate diet (<130g). This advice is not personalised for me but applies to many people. My diabetes is not a new, different form of diabetes.

    Here’s the part of the email:
    “I normally don’t recommend low carb diet <130g per day as you have type 1 diabetes and there is a higher risk of ketosis.”

    The question is asking “how many carbs is too few?” there’s no straight answer and the fact that you are all jumping at people’s throats for sharing their opinion is bizarre.

    Some of you get frustrated quite easily because the thing I say contradicts your personal experience but not everyone is the same and the fact that you assume your personal experience applies to everyone is insane.

    Needless to say I made the wrong assumption that it was a T1D forum so I’m going to just remove myself
     
  14. JoKalsbeek

    JoKalsbeek Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    The original poster was a T2, and while diabetic ketoacidosis is indeed a killer for T1's, a T2 doesn't run that risk unless other things factor in, like heavy steroids, and even then, it's rare. This forum is for all types of diabetes, T1, T2, T3c and other variants, gestational diabetes, Mody, LADA, and while they all have sub-forums, sometimes we mesh on other sub-forum topics.... You just happened to wander into a part where what applies to you, does not apply to the type of diabetes the original poster has. Believe me, you don't want to know how often I've stuck my foot in it, responding to a T1 with T2 advice. (Which is potentially lethal).
     
  15. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    Ah, that explains why you have used the following words 'I normally don't recommend low carb diets' in several of your posts.

    I strongly urge you to change that sentence, in future, to 'my dietitian does not normally recommend low carb diets to T1s'.
    That will establish that you are simply quoting advice given to you personally, by a single individual, whose opinion is just that - an opinion - and of very limited relevance to many of the members here.
    It will also prevent people from thinking that you are setting yourself up as an authority on the subject.

    This is why referencing information sources is so important on the forum, and why stating other people's views as your own often leads to confusion and misunderstanding.
     
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  16. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    Maybe you should let Dr Bernstein and the members of the Type1 Grit facebook group know that they are risking ketosis.

    Your dietician of course means ketoacidosis but that she doesn't use the correct term shows a certain lack of knowledge and expertise maybe?
     
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  17. Resurgam

    Resurgam Type 2 (in remission!) · Expert

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    Once you realise that ketoacidosis is being warned against, it becomes even clearer that it is not logical. Although not always seen in every case DKA usually shows a high blood glucose level along with the high ketones as without insulin a type one, and others in certain circumstances, struggle to find enough energy to survive.
    When Type twos are eating low carb they might have ketones in their blood - they come from using fats as fuel, but if glucose levels are low they are usually not in danger. There are exceptions, but they are not common.
    Eating a low carb diet is normally a good idea for type twos, particularly the boringly ordinary ones like me who eat low carb and go back to normal, but for some it can be beneficial even with insulin use, as it reduces the need, and also the likelihood of getting the dose wrong by a large amount, because it is not being used in large amounts. If you read the posts here for any length of time it is really amazing how people are learning and coping with their own particular set of problems - from learning just how much carbohydrate can be concealed in a processed food to how catching a cold can alter insulin needs.
     
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  18. ziggy_w

    ziggy_w Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I feel for you, @CelalDari, as you are really just relaying standard advice. Might be a case of shooting the messenger. However, this standard advice, especially as it stands for T2s, is which many of us take issue with.

    It is very rare for any T2 following standard advice to achieve remission (i.e. normal blood sugar levels) without medication. How many do you know? In fact, this advice is why T2 diabetes is generally considered a chronic progressive disease. So, many of us T2s here on this forum feel a bit left alone by the establishment and have succeeded by not following these mainstream guidelines.

    The case for T1s is an entirely different one, even though as @bulkbiker mentions there are also some T1s who seem to do well on a lower carb diet.
     
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  19. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    It would help if you put what type of diabetic you are on your profile.
     
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  20. miss miss

    miss miss Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    wow what great information

    thank you so much
     
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