Insulin resistance reversal on Newcastle Diet

Begonia

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I do not have diabetes
Can anyone explain in simple terms how the Newcastle Diet reverses insulin resistance. Some of what I've read seems to be contradictory but I'm obviously missing something :

1. The idea is to try and mimic what happens with bariatric surgery (which evidence shows does reverse insulin resistance)

2. With bariatric surgery the effect is within days, so is not due to weight loss

3. Dr Mosley's book 'The Blood Sugar Diet' suggests you can either do eight weeks on 800 cals (like Newcastle Diet but using 'real food') or you can take a longer time to lose weight and it will be equally effective. This book has apparently been endorsed by Prof Roy Taylor. This approach seems to suggest that the key is to reduce the fat in the liver and pancreas by losing weight.
 
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serenity648

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as i understand it, bariatric surgery works almost instantly due to bypassing part of the digestive system which triggers insulin release.
 
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Fleegle

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as i understand it, bariatric surgery works almost instantly due to bypassing part of the digestive system which triggers insulin release.

Jason Fung does a video on this but I cannot find it.
It isn't the digestive system because it according to the video works just as well if the stomach is made smaller using a band - where no cutting takes place. Though there is evidence that the cut and paste surgery does indeed by pass a part of the gut which apparently helps a lot.

Here is what I have concluded from reading it:-
I think it is to do with calorie restriction - which starts the process - if you look at peerless67's thread
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/peerless67-newcastle-diet.124417/page-2#post-1526718
and you can see the amazing results so quickly.

Again - from what I have read the calorie restriction immediately starts to eat away at fat in the liver and the muscle cells which creates little by little space. Then after 8 weeks the pancreas too has lost the fatty deposits.

Therefore - if you have Beta cells - and you produce insulin to muscles no longer caked in fat then you become insulin sensitive again.

In all the reports I have read - the fundamental problem after 8 weeks is that the weight goes back on in nearly all cases until you reach your fat threshold at which points you are back to square one. So having great discipline helps.

The diet seemingly also works for people who are not over weight - because apparently the body just stabilises the weight after a period of time (people on the diet report outstanding first weeks of weight lost followed by a marked reduction until they hit a target weight). It is, apparently all about the removal of the really hard to remove fat as opposed to a stone of obvious fat.

This is all from what I have read - I have no practiced experience.
 
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serenity648

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i have seen the video, and cant find it. The diagram shows the bypass bit, and works within hours. Nothing to do with calorie reduction or cutting. its the bypassing of the duodenum which does the trick. Hence it is the part of the digestive system which is bypassed. It is explained here: http://www.laparoscopic.md/digestion/duodenum
 

Fleegle

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i have seen the video, and cant find it. The diagram shows the bypass bit, and works within hours. Nothing to do with calorie reduction or cutting. its the bypassing of the duodenum which does the trick. Hence it is the part of the digestive system which is bypassed. It is explained here: http://www.laparoscopic.md/digestion/duodenum

Ok - I can only tell you what I have read - I have been studying and reading everything I can on the ND diet and the links between bariatric surgery.

Happy for you to go with what you say - but it seems strange that the ND diet - based on B surgery could work if it wasn't calorie reduction of the other papers which show it is the fact that even those with bands can only eat tiny amounts - which is calorie reduction.

I have defo seen a video which states that this is rapid calorie reduction.
 
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ringi

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Jason Fung does a video on this but I cannot find it.
It isn't the digestive system because it according to the video works just as well if the stomach is made smaller using a band - where no cutting takes place. Though there is evidence that the cut and paste surgery does indeed by pass a part of the gut which apparently helps a lot.

The bypass seems to work a little better and faster then the band, but costs a lot more and is higher risk.
 
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bulkbiker

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"Pre-op diets

Even before you undergo weight loss surgery, your bariatric surgeon may recommend a change in your diet to prepare your body for surgery. This special pre-operative diet will help shrink your liver and reduce fat in your abdomen so that your surgeon can operate more easily and safely and increases the chances of your surgery being performed laparoscopically.

Losing weight before surgery will also help with your recovery, increase your rate of weight loss and aid with the transition to your post-op diet.

The time frame for your pre-op diet will vary from patient to patient. Based on your situation and how much weight you need to lose before surgery, your bariatric surgeon will advise you when to start your pre-surgery diet.

For gastric band patients, the pre-op diet may start two to three weeks before surgery, while for the more involved procedures such as gastric sleeve or gastric bypass your pre-op diet may start sooner.

You can expect your pre-surgery weight loss diet to be high in protein, but low in calories, fats, and carbohydrates, especially refined sugars and saturated fat.

The pre-surgery diet generally ranges from 800 to 1200 calories per day with about 70 to 120 grams of protein each day. You will also be advised to start vitamin supplements to ensure your body has the nutrients necessary for recovery and health.

A few of the benefits of the pre-op diet include:
• Shrinking your fatty liver
• Preparing your body for surgery
• Faster recovery following surgery
• Preparing you for your post-operative diet"

Sounds pretty similar to the ND

from
http://www.ramsayhealth.co.uk/blog/...ost-op-diets-for-weight-loss-surgery-patients
 
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bulkbiker

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And possibly even more interesting
"The liver shrinking diet

The liver shrinking diet is an eating plan low in dietary carbohydrate and fat that will encourage your body to use up glycogen (a form of sugar that is stored in the liver and muscles for energy) and fat stores to help shrink the size of your liver.

With each ounce of glycogen your body stores three to four ounces of water². When you follow a very strict diet that is low in starch and sugars your body loses its glycogen stores and some water resulting in your liver shrinking.

This diet is only recommended before surgery and is not to be followed post–operatively.

It is quite possible that you will lose a lot of weight following the liver shrinkage diet but it will mainly be water loss. This diet usually allows between 800 to 1000kcal a day.

By reducing the size of the liver, the operating time for laparoscopic surgery is shortened and the procedure is safer.

In some instances, a bariatric surgeon may postpone surgery if the patient's liver is too large."
Same page
 
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Fleegle

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And possibly even more interesting
"The liver shrinking diet

The liver shrinking diet is an eating plan low in dietary carbohydrate and fat that will encourage your body to use up glycogen (a form of sugar that is stored in the liver and muscles for energy) and fat stores to help shrink the size of your liver.

With each ounce of glycogen your body stores three to four ounces of water². When you follow a very strict diet that is low in starch and sugars your body loses its glycogen stores and some water resulting in your liver shrinking.

This diet is only recommended before surgery and is not to be followed post–operatively.

It is quite possible that you will lose a lot of weight following the liver shrinkage diet but it will mainly be water loss. This diet usually allows between 800 to 1000kcal a day.

By reducing the size of the liver, the operating time for laparoscopic surgery is shortened and the procedure is safer.

In some instances, a bariatric surgeon may postpone surgery if the patient's liver is too large."
Same page

Both articles really interesting - and goes to show that when you think you have read it all you find that to be far from the truth.
 

Chook

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Both articles really interesting - and goes to show that when you think you have read it all you find that to be far from the truth.

Oh yes..... weirdly it sort of turns in to a hobby.
 

Brunneria

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Type of diabetes
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Can anyone explain in simple terms how the Newcastle Diet reverses insulin resistance. Some of what I've read seems to be contradictory but I'm obviously missing something :

1. The idea is to try and mimic what happens with bariatric surgery (which evidence shows does reverse insulin resistance)

2. With bariatric surgery the effect is within days, so is not due to weight loss

3. Dr Mosley's book 'The Blood Sugar Diet' suggests you can either do eight weeks on 800 cals (like Newcastle Diet but using 'real food') or you can take a longer time to lose weight and it will be equally effective. This book has apparently been endorsed by Prof Roy Taylor. This approach seems to suggest that the key is to reduce the fat in the liver and pancreas by losing weight.

Hi begonia :)

I think that all the comments made above are relevant.
But a major factor to also bear in mind, is that insulin resistance is a very variable thing.
The more carbs we eat, and the less exercise we take, the higher our IR is likely to be.
The fewer carbs we eat, and the less insulin we have to deal with those carbs, AND the more exercise we take, the lower our insulin resistance is likely to be.

You will find many personal stories across the forum of people having different levels of insulin resistance at different times of the same day. For instance, a type one diabetic may need to inject different amounts of insulin for the same food, depending on whether they are eating it at breakfast, or for dinner. Also, very many type 2 diabetics discover that their blood glucose levels rise more if they have carbs in the morning, and less if they eat the same carbs later in the day.

Several different factors affect insulin resistance, exercise, food choices, medication, fasting, etc. So I wouldn't want to give the impression that it is all about food, or surgery - it really isn't.

While insulin resistance is something that may rise slowly over time, as we move through pre-diabetes to diabetes, it can ALSO rise and fall significantly within within a single day - without surgery. Exercise being one of the biggest influences.

So anyone who has bariatric surgery, (following a healthier eating plan before and after surgery), combined with much smaller portions, will have dramatic drops in IR. If they add exercise in too, then the reduction is even greater.
 
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ringi

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Insulin Resistance is created due to their being too much insulin in our body (due to high BG). If you can take metformin without the **** side effects, then do so, as it helps break Insulin Resistance but it is not enough on its own. SGLT2 Inhibitors will also help, but have risks, however they are a good option if BG need to be reduced quickly.

To reverse Insulin Resistance we must have long lengths of time when there is a low level of insulin and a low level glucose in our blood. This enables our body to burn fat, and then assuming that you are not eating more fat then your body needs for energy, your body will start to burn some of its own fat.

The first fat to be burned comes from the Liver, removing fat form the Pancreas takes longer, the fat we can see on ourselves has very little effect but losing it can make us feel better. As removing the fat form the Pancreas takes a long time, you can't do it without losing visible fat. The quick benefit comes form emptying the liver of fat and solid glucose hence enabling the liver to respond a lot better to insulin.

A “normal” person will get a low level of insulin and glucose just be eating a little less, but we are not normal, as we have Insulin Resistance. Hence balanced diets don’t work for us. We need to reduce our calories to a very low level for a long term, or reduce our carbs (and maybe proteins) for a long time. The Newcastle Diet reduces calorie to a very low level for 8 weeks.

Some of us can get our BG and insulin low enough just by avoiding most curbs, others need to reduce protein as well. Fasting for at least 18hr works for nearly everyone but longer fasts works better.

It seems to the length of time that our BG and insulin low enough that is key, the required level is lower than is needed to control BG.

Given that the Newcastle Diet most often fails due to what people eat after it, my views are.

  • We should start with using a meter before and after meals to learn what each meal does to us. (say 1 week)
  • Then start eating meals that we love that don’t increase our BG by more than 2 without caring about the size of the meal or losing weight. (say next 4 weeks)
  • Start to think about size of meals etc if you need to lose weight and are not doing so.
  • Then start increasing the number of hours each day between meals, by not having snacks and for example having dinner earlier and maybe skipping breakfast.
  • Make breakfast as low carb as possible if having it, hence bullet proof coffee etc.
  • Then and only then start eating very low calorie for at least 5 days at a time, or fast (just water and bone broth) for at least 3 days at a time. (This could be the Newcastle Diet)
At each stage track process and what your BG is doing, by doing it in stages if we “fail” on the very low calorie diet, we fail back to something that is acceptable. We have also trained ourselves how to eat after the diet, before we start it. Long term if we are to remain eating low carb food we must eat more good fat, as our body will have used up the stores – I am looking forward to having this problem.

If you have the commitment you can start with fasting for a few days at a time (just bone broth) eating normal food between the fasts, trying to avoid most carbs. This can get BG down very quickly but needs more commitment and a wife that does not expect me to cook all of her meals.

Exercise (resistance training is best but takes effort) speeds up the process, but is not needed and will not work without diet change. I now go for a 30 minute walk after dinner most days etc.
 
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serenity648

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Ok - I can only tell you what I have read - I have been studying and reading everything I can on the ND diet and the links between bariatric surgery.

Happy for you to go with what you say - but it seems strange that the ND diet - based on B surgery could work if it wasn't calorie reduction of the other papers which show it is the fact that even those with bands can only eat tiny amounts - which is calorie reduction.

I have defo seen a video which states that this is rapid calorie reduction.
I didnt say that the Newcastle diet doesnt work. I simply replied to the question of how bariatric surgery works so quickly.

The newcastle diet, or anything similar to it, works more slowly and temporarily, as the crucial bit of the duodenum action hasnt been bypassed, so returning to the wrong eating will cause the diabetes to return.
 

ringi

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3,365
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Type 2
Remember that if the Newcastle diet only works for 80% of the people who bariatric surgery works for, it is still a great option as the risks are so much lower, and the option of Newcastle diet is still there.

I am expecting that lots of diets (Newcastle, very low carb, intermittent fasting, etc) would be shown to work nearly as well if the same commitment was given to them as is given both the patient and the doctors as is with bariatric surgy. (Just no more low-fat diets that clearly don't work for the people who need them the most.)
 

Fleegle

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775
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Diet only
I didnt say that the Newcastle diet doesnt work. I simply replied to the question of how bariatric surgery works so quickly.

The newcastle diet, or anything similar to it, works more slowly and temporarily, as the crucial bit of the duodenum action hasnt been bypassed, so returning to the wrong eating will cause the diabetes to return.

Thanks for the clarity. I think you will find that bariatric surgery has quite a high fail rate for cure. Some patients do not stick to the diet (which is low carb) that they are asked to and end up back where they started. I think the posts earlier in the thread give a good explanation of what happens that makes the surgery and ND really well aligned.

It is too early to say on the proper ND as they are only in the second phase of a longer term study. The results so far have been stunning but longer term research is needed. But one assumes if those that undertook the ND diet (outside the study) ate the same amount post reversal as those who undertook surgery their outcomes would be the same?

Again what I have read mainly on here - is that regardless of what you do, curing T2 is less prevalent than reversing. So whether it is VLCD, LCHF, ND or any other reversal, it is a way of life and breaking from it in quite a few cases leads back to square 1.

I am not expert I just thought some of what you had posted was not what I had read. I shall step back from this as it could feel like an argument which I am not qualified to have nor do I want to have. You could be spot on.
 
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serenity648

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Not arguing, clarifying what I put. Thats all. Sorry if I came over a bit strongly : )
 

buckmr2

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Insulin
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I had Roux-en-Y bariatric surgery in Nov 2015 as i was worried abour becoming totally resistant to insulin (never saw myself as being fat even though I was at around 23st.).
Prior to surgery my control was very good.
After losing over 10st in 6 months (had to put a new notch in my belt weekly) my control was far harder due to increased insulin sensitivity.(and less fat to stop the insulin from working)
My insulin doaage dropped to about 1/3 of the pre op amounts but had numeeous hypos after losing weight when I got down to 13st 2lb. due to increased sensitivity. Immediately after surgery theres still fat which stops insulin from working as effectively as it could in a slimmer person assuming same csrb intake.

Re pre op liver shrinkibg diet
There was a choice of 2 different liver reducing diets that I was offered for the 2 weeks prior to op. You could pick one. If you didnt follow it RELIGIOUSLY you wouldn't be allowed to have the op.
 
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