1. Get the Diabetes Forum App for your phone - available on iOS and Android.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Guest, we'd love to know what you think about the forum! Take the Diabetes Forum Survey 2021 »
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Diabetes Forum should not be used in an emergency and does not replace your healthcare professional relationship. Posts can be seen by the public.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Guest, stay home, stay safe, save the NHS. Stay up to date with information about keeping yourself and people around you safe here and GOV.UK: Coronavirus (COVID-19). Think you have symptoms? NHS 111 service is available here.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Find support, ask questions and share your experiences. Join the community »

Intermittent fasting: 14/10-16/8, 5:2, 24-hr fast, 20-hr fast

Discussion in 'Fasting' started by AloeSvea, Jun 30, 2015.

  1. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,508
    Likes Received:
    1,689
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Indy - I feel bad now too! :(. (I am not very good at strong suggestions contrary to what I want to do - it is my bad.) But I am really pleased if things are good between us now - I LOVE your posts! And you are fantastic about fasting.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  2. zicksi101

    zicksi101 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    68
    I'm getting in on the act with this Intermittent Fasting stuff.

    Now I'm type 1 diabetic, and currently 14% body fat, so I am in reasonable shape. However it was a shock to learn recently that I have started to develop insulin resistance, or double diabetes, and my doctor suggested I go on Metformin to manage this.

    Low carbing in the evening worked for me, for a while, but then my total daily dose started to creep up insidiously...

    So, now I'm bringing out the big guns. A daily 12/12 intermittent fast. Only 4 days in but already my total daily dose has dropped by 6 units, and more importantly, 2 of those units have come off my night time Levemir, which my doctor said was the goal of the Metformin treatment anyway.

    My basal dose is probably quite low for a type 1, but the profile of it is unusual: in the morning I only need 5u of levemir, but in the evening I'm taking 14u, and sometimes they are overlap to cause morning hypos unfortunately. I've got to a point where I can't just increase the dose any further, otherwise I'll hypo at 2am, so the only options are to limit insulin, or wake up in the middle of the night and take even more insulin - but the latter would only compound the problem.

    Despite the reasonable body fat percentage, I put on 6 pounds in the last 3 months which was a complete shock to me, especially given I just finished a half marathon last month. I'm sure a few of us have similar stories to tell with age...

    The simplicity of the intermittent fasting appeals to me. No more expensive low carb supper which doesn't really work anyway (I was having to bolus 4u for the protein in it.) Just 12 hours of fasting a day, done, and I can eat normally in the other 12 hours to sustain myself.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,508
    Likes Received:
    1,689
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Daily 12/12 IFing does sound good! And such good results after 4 days in.

    Yeah - I find Fung's work on increasing insulin sensitivity via fasting (and low carbing) is pretty convincing. And in terms of preventing cardio vascular problems that can come with diabetes (um - strokes! And I think the words 'mortality from CV events' were used, but that may have just been a bad bad dream....) - he notes that fasting (and low carbing?) is better than metformin. I'm hoping so! And I hope I am remembering his graphs properly - I'm not referring to them, it's pretty late for me so I can't bring myself to have a look in my notes, and I'm only awake from too-late Apple Cider Vinegar dose in water, which can be a bit like night-time coffee for me. (My apology for not providing links.)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. britishpub

    britishpub Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,722
    Likes Received:
    10,575
    Trophy Points:
    198
    My tuppence worth as regards hunger. To me its mostly in the mind, I rarely found myself hungry when doing 24 hour fasts, or following a 5:2 regime, and I consider that due to the fact I knew I was doing it for a good reason, and not just an attempt to lose weight.

    However I seem to have lost my motivation to fast currently, I bottled out early last Thursday and woke up this morning (usual fast day) ravenous, so dropped the idea.

    It seems to coincide with finding out my HbA1c from December, as this has happened since then.

    I just hope I am not being overly confident.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,508
    Likes Received:
    1,689
    Trophy Points:
    178
    @britishpub - I don't think we would have survived as a species if hunger was even just mostly in the mind! Hunger would have to be very real for us to be very motivated by it to get up off in front of the fire with your friends and family to go out and pick, dig and hunt for food. My dears - lest we forget - we die without food! It takes a wee while but it does happen. And think our friend (not! boy do I have a bone to pick with him!) Ancel Keyes' experiment with those poor conscientious objectors where they starved them and watched them go crazy, basically. (The bone I have to pick with him is the High Carb Low Fat diet that did not agree with my insulin receptors!)

    Ditto on feeding the hungry mouths of our babes - even when our babes are in their early 20s and going to uni ;):). The very first emotion we feel as people is hunger - if hunger can be counted as an emotion? (It must be - right?) A baby cries, we feed it. Baby stops crying. The first form of communication. And relationship once born, all things being equal.

    As much as I enjoy these fireplace convos I must myself get up from in front of the lovely forum, pack an LCHF lunch for work, and go out and metaphorically hunt and pick food for myself and the family. (If I didn't feel my own hunger, and the hunger of my babes and loved one, I sure as hell wouldn't go do that! lol. No way. Much more enjoyable to be in here debating the enormous power of hunger :).)
     
  6. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,508
    Likes Received:
    1,689
    Trophy Points:
    178
    I have been pretty highly motivated to the clean eating thing, post diagnosis, that's for sure. And a big part of my own story is not having understood the 'bad sugar' thing through most of my life. I wasn't reading up on nutrition - apart from a brief stint in my early 20s, due to a spate of cancer in my family (but that stint took me to being a vegetarian for a wee while- egads!) (Read - lots of bread! To go with the admittedly lovely salads and lentil and root vege dishes.) To be honest - what I don't know about nutrition now can fit on a postage stamp (if I may be so bold). And how I missed the evil of sugary drinks I will never know! (But I did.)

    What really motivated me, on diagnosis, was reading that, ah, unlovely list of 'complications'. As I was only in my early 50s, and no sight yet of grandchildren - which I would dearly love to see, and walk with, and be alive for - I basically got motivated to do anything and everything I could to get as better as I could. I have never been a person heavily into medication, so I tried to do it without medication - the part of me which is plain old stubborn. (I do, actually, revisit the idea of going on metformin pretty often, as the cog in my diabetic wheel is in fact the state and function of my liver, is what I believe, plus a big whack of insulin resistance - your common garden variety T2 diabetes in other words.)

    If I am lucky enough to get out of the pre/diabetic range (which may not ever happen) the motivation would be to stay there! (Ah! An HBA1c in the 30s!) Keep the kidneys, liver, eyesight, feet - those pleasant things for sure! That means to me then a lifetime of 'clean eating'. Which is no bad thing. The fasting - now yes, I see your point @EdMac. Because I seem to still have fat on my liver/lots of sugar stores in my liver (if Fung and Taylor et al are correct - and we do need to be reminded that it is still a working theory - one that seems to be working for diabetics, but still!) getting the last of it out, and keeping it off may very well mean a lifetime of intermittent fasting.

    Sigh.

    But I have my apple cider vinegar, organic vege broth, nori (dried seaweed strips, for the iodine), good tasting decaf coffee for the afternoon - lined up on the kitchen bench all ready for me to pack for another at work - fasting. Oh yeah - plus some divine organic double cream for the decaf! (Fung's suggestion for getting through fasting. Not a strict fast - but helps me be able to do it at work.) (I get prone to feeling faint - which apparently is a salts thing, hence broth and seaweed - it really does make a difference!) (The cream thing is just a - motivator! To get through the afternoon.) Anyway. Time to get ready and off to work.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,508
    Likes Received:
    1,689
    Trophy Points:
    178
    @britishpub - if I had an HBA1c of 26 I would be feeling pretty confident AND letting fasting days lapse in the wake of feeling ravenous too! Well done. Very friendly and admiring envy coming your way....:)
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. britishpub

    britishpub Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,722
    Likes Received:
    10,575
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Thanks . I felt motivated this morning so didn't eat anything until dinner. Nearly succumbed around 3PM but hung in there.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  9. zicksi101

    zicksi101 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Nice active thread here.

    As far as motivations are concerned, for whatever reason, I've never been very motivated by complications. I've sat in clinic being lectured about the risk of them as a teenager, quite frankly finding it difficult to care.

    What seems to be more motivating to me is the thought of making it into old age healthy, you know, as one of those diabetes survivors that get interviewed about it.

    Also, I have noticed that my running fitness is actually *improving* since starting the IF, my easy run (less than 80% of maximum heart rate) pace just got 15s per mile faster. I don't know if that's a result of the IF or just some fitness improvement that was due to happen anyway, but the idea of improved performance is pretty motivating.

    Edit: Just to be clear, I'm saying aerobic fitness is improving here. I have since tried a 5k, and in that case found that my racing fitness is definitely NOT improving.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    #129 zicksi101, Apr 13, 2016 at 9:28 PM
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2016
  10. Stevia_queen

    Stevia_queen Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    40
    Trophy Points:
    38
    what is ketosis and how do you measure it?
     
  11. zicksi101

    zicksi101 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    68
    I think it's important to separate out a few things here:

    Diabetic ketoacidosis (or DKA, often referred to as ketosis): This is a serious, life threatening complication of diabetes. It is the result of coupling a high ketone level (due to a lack of insulin) with high blood sugar. It could happen, for example, if a type 1 diabetic forgets to take their insulin, or if their insulin pump fails to deliver it.

    Nutritional ketosis: This is a perfectly normal, natural state and the result of a low insulin level. In non-diabetics, this can be seen when they don't eat for a while (I've seen a ketone level as high as 3mmol/l in a non-D) or eat a very low carb diet. It can be dangerous as a diabetic though, if coupled with high blood sugar level, but this is only a danger if blood sugar levels go above the normal range.

    Personally, as a type 1, I do not deliberately go keto. I know that my blood sugars can be higher than the normal range, so I give it a miss because I think it would be arrogant to expect that I would never screw it up.

    You can measure it using a ketone meter or Ketostix.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  12. zicksi101

    zicksi101 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Still seeing good results with the fasting, evening basal down to 13u now.
     
  13. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,508
    Likes Received:
    1,689
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Ketosis is when your body has switched from sugar-burning mode, to fat-burning mode, to get its energy. Being fat-burning, as opposed to sugar burning is of interest to diabetics, as it means you can be as healthy as possible on as low a carb/glucose diet as possible. (Where the body produces glucose for the brain if there isn't any or much coming in in the diet - a perfectly natural and healthy way for humans to live.) If you are interested in reading more about this method of getting better with diabetes Dr Eenfeldt - the diet doctor, has a whole lot of LCHF for diabetics on his website, and Dr Wortman, a diabetic doctor talks about his very low carb (basically the Atkins Induction diet) diet that allows him good health with T2. (There is a video of Dr Wortman talking about it on the diet doctor's site.)

    To measure ketones, I use the cheapest method - ketostix in the northern hemisphere, and a brand called ketur-test currently in the southern. 'Pee sticks' in other words! They have their limitations - as it actually measures the excess ketones that come out in the urine, and there is some kind of time lag. A much better method is to test the blood, and there are blood glucose meters, for instance, that also test ketone levels. I plan to get one, but I get carried away buying expensive organic food items instead still! (Sugar free gherkins/pickled cucumber from California, organic double cream, paleo crackers that I don't have to make myself - that kind of thing!) (Food, glorious food, that I can eat and won't kill my kidneys.) (And alas, my FBGs are still nowhere near normal enough levels, even with IFing, even with low-carbing.)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
    Staff Member

    Messages:
    21,043
    Likes Received:
    34,668
    Trophy Points:
    298
    That is interesting. I am guessing that the heavy legged feeling was insulin resistance. I get it too. You can, overtime discover if that is the case, by comparing heavy legs with carb/exercise/fasting incidents. And then use the feeling to gauge current IR levels.

    For instance, I know that my IR hikes after a hypo and after a carby meal. And have observed that the heavy legs match this, continuing for up to 2-3 days after the event that raised the IR.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  15. Stevia_queen

    Stevia_queen Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    40
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I saw this article on hunger and though it would be interestng read for u guys.http://diabetesupdate.blogspot.co.uk/2007/08/hunger-is-symptom.html?m=1

    It says being worried about being hungry raises your stress levels which in turn raises your blood sugar levels. I found this reassuring as im bloody starving on my first week of cutting out carbs to get better results. X
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. zicksi101

    zicksi101 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Interesting topic. I have heard Dr B suggest that high blood sugars turn muscles into sugar water. I sometimes wonder if a persistent heavy legged feeling could be the result of muscle catabolism... brutal.

    I had the heavy legs for a few weeks, but at the time I just put it down to a half marathon taper. I have since noticed that it went away after I managed to reduce the morning dawn phenomenon spike as a result of fasting, so at that point I realised the symptom was physical rather than psychological.
     
  17. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,508
    Likes Received:
    1,689
    Trophy Points:
    178
    @Stevia_queen - I'm not sure why you are so hungry from cutting carbs - are you getting enough protein and healthy fats? (Do you really think it's stress causing you to feel hungry?) I get hungry when I don't eat - although this is improving a lot with fasting practice, as in I can deal with hunger a lot better now, and I don't feel it as intensely. But, I don't suffer undue hunger when eating! Nuts, meat and lots of veg, big bowls of salad, seafood and fish - won't spike your blood glucose, is nutritious - and should be well filling. What kinds of things are you eating low carb? (Can I ask?)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. zicksi101

    zicksi101 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    68
    If you are only a week in... don't be too quick to judge.

    The thing that makes me hungry is a high insulin level. When I initially tried a LCHF diet I found it took 2 weeks to get my insulin levels low enough. At that point it was as if my body adapted and I no longer felt hungry.

    If there's one thing I have learned though, it's that everyone is different, and crikey I am most definitely different as it appears I am someone who can actually manage to overdose on fat lol, but all I'm saying is give it a proper chance.

    All I suggest is having a blood glucose meter as an objective measure so you can see how you react to food (or lack of it) over time.

    The problem with some of these articles online is that the research may be fuelled by the food industry which is only concerned with making money. I found this to be especially true with the Runners World article on "how to fuel for a long run" for type 1 diabetics... advocating that we consume lots of carbs without any suggestion to reduce insulin. Why would they suggest that we reduce insulin? There is no money to be made.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. Finsky

    Finsky Prefer not to say · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    437
    Likes Received:
    921
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Hunger is interesting topic indeed! Some time ago, my non-diabetic 'other half's' first reaction for my decision for starting fasting was ':eek:...that is DANGEROUS! Which lead into loooong conversation of the topic...after while he did start to see sense of it all. He is one who's tummy and brains are fully trained to eat certain time of the day, like a clock work...even if he is not that hungry!:rolleyes:...just because 'you are supposed to do so....:rolleyes:
    Now that he has taken LCHF way of eating into his life style (not full heartedly but the man is having a go at it...;))...he has now come to realization that he is not hungry at the approach of the 'usual meal time.! This morning he even surprised himself saying...."should I eat or not any breakkie? I'm not hungry!" When I gave him 'the look'..:rolleyes:...he decided that he might as well miss it.:D...and followed what I was doing...just cup of creamy coffee and we were ready for a busy day ahead. I think he is now quite encouraged to skip meal or two, knowing that it is not that drastic feeling to his body after all. Lot of it is down to mind set and getting the satisfaction from one's food in first place and it will fuel our hunger for looooooong time.
    AND...hubby has lost some weight as well...he is very surprised because according to him 'he haven't even tried to loose any and has been eating so well!' :D I have noticed other changes in him too...he is less tired and in need of naps and seem to have more energy to things>>even dog is looking much leaner when both us are out and about all the time! WIN WIN.. far reaching 'diet' effects..;)
    I doubt I could ever push any longer term fasting attempts for him...that would be step to far...
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,508
    Likes Received:
    1,689
    Trophy Points:
    178
    I'm pleased you find talking about hunger interesting - I think it is an important topic in a fasting thread! :). As anyone who reads my posts know - I have not found that hunger miraculously disappears on day 2 (such a nice idea!), (Dr Fung and Prof Taylor both insist that this happens regularly), although I do understand that it can for some. But I can live with hunger much much better, and have my body seems to have retrained itself (I don't have hunger pains at all anymore - thank goodness), (and I only experience some mild tummy rumblings rarely).

    I believe I get through the work day without getting noticeably irritable (although ask my family what I am like when I get home?! That may be another thing. Grumpy, is a nice word for it, and I believe folk on VLCDs talk about being a bit, er, grumpy.) Currently, I have two fasting days a week - close-ish to 24 hours, and I always inform my loved ones that it is a fasting day - and they adjust their expectations of my mood when I get home before dinner accordingly! (It can't be too bad, as I am still reminding Herr Svea, on fasting days, that an earlier dinner at 6ish might be better for everyone than a late dinner! But you might want to ask him how, ah, tenderly I suggest that earlier dinner time!)

    I don't tell anyone at work that I am not eating two days a week there. Everyone is too busy and the office is physically very big, to notice, which suits me fine. At lunchtime I take a cup of broth, or a coffee with cream outside and walk around with it for a half hour.

    Not packing a lunch two days a week out of five - is fantastic! I have to say. Not having nuts at 3 in the afternoon not so fantastic:(. But today is a non-fasting day! So I need to get off to work with my rather large packed lunch.
     
  • Meet the Community

    Find support, connect with others, ask questions and share your experiences with people with diabetes, their carers and family.

    Did you know: 7 out of 10 people improve their understanding of diabetes within 6 months of being a Diabetes Forum member. Get the Diabetes Forum App and stay connected on iOS and Android

    Grab the app!
  • Tweet with us

  • Like us on Facebook