Intermittent fasting alongside LCHF. Mutual support, anyone?

[TheSecretCarbAddict]

I find processed carbs to be my nemesis... once I pop, I can't stop! Well done, though, on recognising what was going on with chocolate and finding a handy alternative.

Last week, I was in Tesco and desperately wanted to find a fix. I headed to the protein bar section and got myself Pulsin Keto bar. First time I tried it and was pleasantly surprised by the taste/texture and how kind it was to my BG (almost no change).

Anyway, the last few days have been busy and pretty much on auto-pilot, but have managed to stay LC and BG levels looking very reasonable. Intermittent fasting less successful, my window has gone to 14/10 to even 12/12 on some days. Dug out my copy of Michael Moseley's The Fast Keto 800 - time to remind myself LCHF basics. I seem to remember this is where I discovered IF as well.

On Trulicity front, my local pharmacy didn't have it in stock, but GP practice surprised me by locating some for me in another pharmacy opposite side of the town. Sorted for next four weeks, will see what happens after that. Hope you get yours.

I've discovered there is a monthly low carb / carb addiction meeting at my local GP practice. I'm planning to attend my first one tomorrow. I wonder if it will be like this forum, just F2F.

 

[AloeSvea]

Hi @BarbaraG. Well done you for doing all-day fasts whilst staying away from home! That's a fasting challenge indeed.

I find having to explain LCHF/needing to cut down, way down on carbs, and then being able to healthily (according to nutritional theory of LCHF) eat animal fats, really draining, especially after 9 years plus of doing it, and tiresome, but I do need to do it, as the norm with hospitality is of course being offered food. Declining a lot of it is tricky. Especially because I'm kind of staunch on saying that I can eat anything I want, it's just I treat my diabetes with diet, so that means lowering carbs. Maybe I should just learn to say, "Yeah" on "Oh, you can't eat ____?" (whatever too high carb food is being offered). I have a close galpal with longterm memory issues who I'm going to be seeing a lot more of shortly, so I guess I had better brush up on the "can't eat high-carbs" line! (I'm used to doing this with my own mother, who has vascular dementia.)

Anyway. One of the social sticking points of eating way lower carbs than the general population. And that's without the 'not eating for periods of time' part!

 

[BarbaraG]

Yesterday was my mother’s birthday, so my sister and I took her out for lunch. A pub, with carbs everywhere! But I had a mixed grill, swapped the chips for salad, gave my onion rings to my mother and ignored the peas. It was delicious, and barely caused a blip in my BG. Evening meal was a big-ass salad, which I constructed myself, with a baked cheese thing which was pretty low carb, followed by berries and cream.

And now I’m fasting again, because today is when I’m travelling home. It’s a 2- hour drive, so I leave late morning and arrive early afternoon, having lunch at neither end, which is simple and inconveniences no-one.

I’m now 7 days post when I should have had a Trulicity dose, my 7-day average BG has gone up by 0.4 points to 7.1. When the equivalent happened in February, it was a full point in the first week. I am taking this as a hopeful sign. I will check with the pharmacy again when I get home, but won’t be too bothered if they say they can’t get it. I reckon my average BG will only continue to rise for another week or so before turning the corner and heading down again.

I’m going to have the conversation with my husband this evening about intensifying my fasting. I’m thinking of two 24-hours (skip lunch) on Monday and Friday and a 38-42 hour (zero food) on Wednesdays. All it will mean is that he’ll have to get his own lunch a couple of extra days (as I’m usually out on Wednesdays anyway) and sort his own evening meal on a Wednesday. That’s just a minor adjustment when we do the shopping, to make sure he’s got something in he can slam in the microwave.

The rest of the week, it will be my lovely - well, mostly tolerable - meals made from real food. Low carb for me, extra carbs for him, because he is yet to be converted to the benefits of LCHF.

@TheSecretCarbAddict - how good that your GP practice has that support group! Very enlightened - and I suspect, sadly not common. My eldest sister, who was diagnosed T2D 18 months ago was recommended IF by her GP. Yet to try it, though. My second sister - the one who is here - was recently diagnosed with fatty liver. She’s waiting for follow up with the GP, but based on her own investigations has started eating something called Green Mediterranean. Also interested in fasting, but so far that seems to be mainly no snacking and not having milk in drinks between meals. All these variations - but as long as we all find something which improves our own health and that we can do, it’s all good.

 

[BarbaraG]

Minor update: I’: going to do the 38-42 hour fast on Mondays, as we have choir in the evening and then do the (food) shopping - and keeping busy will distract me from the fact of not eating in those last few hours before going to bed. Then 24 hour fasts on Wednesday and Friday. I’m undecided whether to finish the longer fast with breakfast or lunch, as I generally now don’t eat breakfast anyway. I’ll see how I feel.

in terms of meals per day, my week will look like this:
Monday: 0
Tuesday: 2 or 3
Wednesday:1
Thursday: 2
Friday: 1
Sat/Sun: 2

Another way of looking at it is:

Skip breakfast every day, with the possible exception of Tuesday
Skip lunch Mon, Wed, Fri
Skip tea on Monday.

And no snacking!

 

[ianf0ster]

A quick check in from me. I fasted for 24 hours on Saturday as I drove to visit my mother for a few days. I’ve done my best with low carb here and breakfast-skipping….. but after deciding I could have a few chocolate mints after eating on Sunday night, I suddenly found myself scoffing a load more while my mother was out of the room, so obviously the chocolate monster in me is still there.

There is no point in beating myself up over that, but there IS a point in learning from the experience. So yesterday I bought some olives - then if the chocolate urge strikes me this evening, I will have those instead. I didn’t want any chocolate yesterday evening because the meal we had (curry) was so filling, I was stuffed. I had one popadom and one onion bhaji, declined any rice, but fried some green veg in curry spices. Today we are going out for lunch, so I had a look online at the menu for the pub we are going to. It’s all chips, pastry, pasta and burger buns! But they do a mixed grill - 4 different sorts of meat and a fried egg, so that’s what I’ll be having.

I head home tomorrow. So I’ll be fasting until the evening meal, that will be 22-24 hours depending exactly what time we eat tonight. Then I plan to talk to Mr BarbaraG about him sorting out his own meals a few times a week. I think I’d like to aim for 24 hour fasts (skip lunch) on Mondays and Fridays, 36-42 hour (a full day without food) on Wednesdays, and skip breakfast (16-18 hours) every other day.

I need to intensify my fasting a little if I’m not going to be able to get the Trulicity. I managed to forget to check with the pharmacy on Saturday before I left, but they haven’t texted me to say it’s in, so I’m guessing it’s not. The first few days after missing the dose it there didn’t seem to be much impact on my BG, but it is definitely starting to move up now. So hoping that more fasting will counteract that.

When I get 'the munchies', substituting a low/no carb snack usually works for me- so I don't go off track.

Whenever I'm eating out and a meal comes with chips, I look at what else they provide/sell - do they have eggs, do they have salad. I will always politely mention my diet for controlling T2 Diabetes and ask for the chips to be replaced either by green salad, or extra egg(s). Perhaps I'm lucky, but so far, I have never been refused.

I wish you luck with your fasting. I only fasted after I became fat adapted - so I was never actually hungry!

 

[jpscloud]

Brilliant start @BarbaraG! Mixed grill is such a life saver.

If you want a chocolate hit, you could try the very dark chocolate varieties (I have some 100% cocoa montezouma's absolute black, which totally sorts out the chocolate craving!)

Another great comfort snack is pork scratchings/crackling/puffs - I prefer the ones that are not fried in seed oil (so far I've only found Awfully Posh that fry in pork fat) and they are totally carb free and very satisfying.

Edit: Changed to make a bit more sense!

Edit: Just realised you're going no-snack! But worth keeping something in just in case, maybe, or to take with you if you are out and about and really need something?

 

[AndBreathe]

@BarbaraG - have you had a look at food addiction at all? It is incredibly common, including in those pesky normies.

I found this YouTube video interesting, enlightening and a tad unsettling, but also entertaining. Dr Jen Unwin, who is one of the presenters have written books about it. From memory Fork In The Road is one of her's and highly recommended. (Her profits from it go to The Public Health Collaboration.

She has several food addiction videos on YT.

You are doing incredibly well. Keep on going...........

 

[TheSecretCarbAddict]

Dr Jen Unwin's book was what put my relationship with food in perspective and has given me a framework to deal with my addiction (there, I said it). The low carb group I attended at my GP surgery earlier this week is supported by volunteers from Public Health Collaboration. I think they even run regular online support groups. There is a brief assessment on PHC website to check what type of relationship you have with food. I'm not selling anything here. I'm just a fanboy!

 

[BarbaraG]

Ooh, Blimey - yet more things to add to my must watch/read list!

Best part of 30 years ago, I discovered that I met the diagnostic criteria for binge eating disorder, and have done since childhood. I would say at the moment is that I am in remission from binge eating. There is no doubt that avoiding sugar and other processed carbs makes staying in remission from that a heck of a lot easier.

 

[jpscloud]

I like Vera Tarman on food addictions - lots of videos on you tube and I have got both her books now to read over the summer. I find it so fascinating after so many years of hearing health care professionals saying foods (carbohydrates/processed/ultra processed) are not addictive.

 

[jpscloud]

Ooh, Blimey - yet more things to add to my must watch/read list!

Best part of 30 years ago, I discovered that I met the diagnostic criteria for binge eating disorder, and have done since childhood. I would say at the moment is that I am in remission from binge eating. There is no doubt that avoiding sugar and other processed carbs makes staying in remission from that a heck of a lot easier.

I'm finding it even easier on carnivore but my inner addict keeps reminding me about bread! I have to equate bread with heroin in my mind to convince myself not to fall for it. At some point I do intend to have some, just not at the moment. And I never say never about falling off the wagon, but I hope it will be very rare and short-lived if it does happen.

 

[AloeSvea]

Just a note from me as longterm LCHFer and IFer - I don't go food shopping, or cook for myself or others when fasting - too hard! (I write this in case there is anyone reading this thread who is considering fasting as an ongoing treatment option for their T2D.)

And - we are all addicted to food. Have serious withdrawals and cravings when deprived. We literally die without it. I will always pop in and say this!

I personally use the word 'Addiction' in reference to sugar. In the age of Ultra Processed Food - it's that additive that is in nearly everything and can be cited as the cause of serious health problems.

And here we are with T2D to spread the word.

 

[BarbaraG]

Approaching 18 hours into my planned 41-hour fast. Nearly half way!

Another way to look at it is that what I’ve done up to this point (skip breakfast, no evening snack, no milk in tea/coffee) is just normal for me now. And in fact, from now up until evening meal time is not novel, I’ve been doing that once or twice a week for the last few weeks.

Anyhow - I’m feeling good, and not planning on eating for another 23 hours

 

[BarbaraG]

Just a note from me as longterm LCHFer and IFer - I don't go food shopping, or cook for myself or others when fasting - too hard! (I write this in case there is anyone reading this thread who is considering fasting as an ongoing treatment option for their T2D.)

And - we are all addicted to food. Have serious withdrawals and cravings when deprived. We literally die without it. I will always pop in and say this!

I personally use the word 'Addiction' in reference to sugar. In the age of Ultra Processed Food - it's that additive that is in nearly everything and can be cited as the cause of serious health problems.

And here we are with T2D to spread the word.

Just spotted this.

I definitely won’t be cooking when fasting. The shopping is another matter…. Monday feels like a good day to do the full day fast because choir will keep me occupied for the evening. And it’s convenient for us to shop after choir because we’re already in the city. We live in a small rural town some miles away, and there’s more choice in the big smoke. It’s also quiet after 9pm, so shopping is quicker.

I’m aware it’s not ideal to food shop when fasting. To mitigate the risks, I have made a detailed shopping list and will not deviate from it.

But if it proves too hard, that’s a lesson learned. There’s always another day when you can fast.

 

[BarbaraG]

Just popping in to say - the shopping was fine, I followed my list and got it done. Got home, just having a cup of hot water with lemon juice before bed. And that will be my first full day’s fast done and dusted.

I noticed a funny taste in my mouth part way through the evening (after about 25 hours), which I presume is keto breath. Will that persist, do you know?

Looking forward to going through till lunch tomorrow. Will go swimming first thing, then we have a coffee morning - so not much time in which I might be tempted to eat. I will continue taking pinches of salt through the morning. Then break my fast with a lovely yummy salad.

 

[TheSecretCarbAddict]

You are really going for it, @BarbaraG! I haven't been brave enough yet to even get to 24-hour fast, but I'm getting there. Finished listening to The Diabetes Code, where Dr Fung talks about 36h fasts. The mechanics of how and why it works make sense. Now, I just need to try and do it.

Yesterday, I started following Stage 1 of 800 Keto programme. Had one meal and a little snack within a 4h window. Planning to move to 1 meal a day from today and then stick to it with no snacks to get to 24h fast. And then I will see where I go from there.

Other achievements over the last couple of weeks include completely stopping gliclazide and replacing sugar-free fizzy drinks with sparkling or plain water.

On the shopping front, I find my trips to the grocery store quite fascinating. I walk through the aisles and make a mental note of what starts to trigger me. It is interesting to see that I'm now a lot less bothered about refined carbs than I was in the first few weeks of LC diet. But there are sections where I have hasten my walk to avoid the temptation.

 

[BarbaraG]

Just wanted to share, @TheSecretCarbAddict, that OMAD (1 meal a day) is not recommended for every day unless you are in maintenance mode - you should alternate it with days when you eat two or more meals a day. Part of the power of fasting comes from switching things up, so that your body doesn’t get used to what you’re doing and adapt. That’s my way of understanding what I’ve read and listened to various times, anyway!

Stopping gliclazide certainly is a big achievement, well done! And giving up the fizzy drinks is as well. The podcast I listened to in the gym was explaining how artificial sweeteners still cause an insulin response, even though they don’t raise blood glucose. The sweet taste tells out body that there is sugar incoming, so it reacts in preparation. We want to limit the amount of insulin we produce. Or more accurately - we want to reduce the number of times per day we release insulin at more than background level.

As regards your fasting schedule - comparisons are odious, don’t do it to yourself. We are all starting from different places and our journeys are not identical. You are moving forward in yours, and that’s great.

I went swimming this morning, lost track, and did 2 more lengths than I intended - 37 hours into my fast. I feel great! I feel like I could keep going longer, but I won’t - I will break my fast at lunchtime as planned. For two reasons:- one is that I told the other half that was what I was doing, and he has already expressed some concern about what I’m doing. And the other is to keep longer fasts as extra firepower, should I need it in future. For now, my protocol is 2x24 plus 1x40 per week, 18/6 or 16/8 the other days. I’ll give it a few weeks, then re-evaluate.

 

[TheSecretCarbAddict]

Thanks, @BarbaraG. I wasn't aware of OMAD being a maintenance mode. I have naturally gravitated towards it as I started my LCHF journey. I was eating twice a day to start with and then found myself not being hungry enough to do two meals within a few hours. Need to read up more on this.

I don't really see fasting as a competition. It is just me being curious about how long I can comfortably go without food. I realise that my body can probably go quite a long time and that it is more of a mental challenge for me. It has been quite fascinating to follow your journey, though.

 

[BarbaraG]

It is definitely mental - my subconscious tried to tell me it was too hard for me, and when I realised (while preparing my lunch) that tomorrow is due to be a one-meal day, I momentarily felt that would be too hard. But it won’t. I am stepping my fasting days up from one or two to three per week, so there are obviously fewer eating days in between. And that’s why it’s going to bear down on my blood glucose to compensate for the Trulicity leaving my system. It will probably also accelerate my weight loss, and you won’t hear me complaining about that.

At the same time, I am not averse to the idea that, in a couple of months, say, I will put my weight loss on hold for a while. I have a few days away with family in July, then a week’s holiday in August. There’s no reason I couldn’t relax my fasting regime for a few weeks. I can still do mostly low carb, and I can still skip breakfast on the in between days, and perhaps do a 24-hour once a week. And then when the holidays are over, go back on the stricter version of my plan. That’s what I love about fasting - it is so flexible.

My main source of information about fasting is called The Fasting Method. There’s a website with loads of free info and membership/coaching options you can buy (I haven’t). One of the founders is Dr Jason Fung, a Canadian nephrologist. He has loads of videos on YouTube about fasting as it pertains to obesity, diabetes, fatty liver disease, PCOS etc.

They also have a podcast which has been running over two years ago, which I have only just discovered. So I am listening to the back catalogue. The one I listened to today - episode #25, 3rd May 2022 - had a question about OMAD and how/why it won’t work for weight loss for many people. Worth a listen. Available where you get your podcasts :-;

 

[TheSecretCarbAddict]

@BarbaraG, I just wanted to check in and see how your LCHF / IF journey is progressing? Are there any updates on Trulicity front?

For me, the last week has been full of positives, to the extent that most of it still doesn't feel real, and I'm scared that any moment I'll wake up from my pleasant dream.

Had an appointment with my GP last Thu to review my progress. In addition to stopping gliclazide, I'm now also completely off dapagliflozon (diabetes) and ramipril (hypertension). He is already plotting the next steps pending my blood test results. What?!

Had my blood test done on Fri with results on Monday. HbA1c down from 95mmol/mol to 56mmol/mol after just six and a bit weeks of LCHF. Cholesterol and liver function also improving. My best result in years. And with the least medication in years. I just keep kicking myself that I didn't do all this sooner, but I guess for me, it has been a journey rather than something you do or don't do.

While I haven't been following any formal LCHF diet, I have reduced my carbs quite drastically and now average under 25-30g a day. Weight has been trending in the right direction, but as I have come off my diabetes medicine, I noticed my BG starting to slowly creep up and that longer periods without food are helping to regulate. Feels like I'm naturally at a point where I want to explore fasting as a more formal tool. Now reading Dr Jason Fung's Complete Guide to Fasting.

I've been reflecting on some of the other threads in this forum and discussion around how well controlled your BG levels need to be versus effort and mental toll of being too strict with yourself. I had a chance to compare my CGM reading with a non-diabetic relative who decided to monitor themselves out of curiosity, and I'm now generally trending below them. I started to question if I'm pushing myself a bit too much. But then again, I'm a control freak and wouldn't know the difference - I need to be all in and in green, otherwise what's the point. Yeah, I need to relax and get a life...