Is a Keto diet harmful??

kokhongw

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Thank you. I think I may have been an undiagnosed diabetic for years. I have heart failure with no known cause as I don’t have blocked arteries and neither have I had a heart attack. It is assumed that it is as a result of complications of diabetes . I know that I don’t have an irregular beat now, it can’t be cured though as the damage is done, but now I hope I can stave off the downward spiral of heart failure for a while yet.

This article may provide some insights...
The Failing Heart Relies on Ketone Bodies as a Fuel
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.115.017355

And this
Ketone bodies to the rescue for an aging heart?
https://academic.oup.com/cardiovascres/article/114/1/e1/4775035
 

Jillyfl

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OMG any information linked to this and heart failure is welcome. I want to live beyond 5 to 10 years! At least I know I have some control over my situation. I'm going get the top side of diabetes
 

Daibell

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Don't forget the intuits who have no carbs in their diet and survive well.
 

crazyhenlady

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My diabetic specialist nurse too me that there was a study of individuals who were given the target if getting their hba1 below 6.5 and the she said that a high percentage of the participants had developed heart problems due to their low blood glucose. She told me this after I had the Libre fitted and had got my estimated hba1 to 5.6. I an type 1 diabetic and have lchf diet.
I have asked her to forward me this study but I am yet to receive this. Has anyone else been told anything similar?
 

Guzzler

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My diabetic specialist nurse too me that there was a study of individuals who were given the target if getting their hba1 below 6.5 and the she said that a high percentage of the participants had developed heart problems due to their low blood glucose. She told me this after I had the Libre fitted and had got my estimated hba1 to 5.6. I an type 1 diabetic and have lchf diet.
I have asked her to forward me this study but I am yet to receive this. Has anyone else been told anything similar?
I think that your question would receive a lot of answers if you put it in a thread of its own. It may get lost within this one. Best of luck.
 

J_T3

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They used to have no carbs in their diet. They eat lots of carbs now.

Yeah, and have massive problems because of it. Adoption of a western diet has wrought incredible damage on native health and communities. Obesity and diabetes is epidemic: over 50% in many communities. Alcoholism is endemic: over 70% is an official figure, but it is probably near-universal in all who are not absolute "tea-total" abstainers. Indigenous peoples tend to develop diabetes and they cannot metabolize alcohol - not just in Canada, but everywhere around the globe.

Think about that: carbs as a substantial part of the diet date back to the adoption of sedentary farming in ancient Sumer - present-day Iraq. Prior to that wandering hunter-gatherers would collect edible seeds from progenitors of seed crops like wheat, (ancient versions of teff, etc.). Prior to 7,000 years of selective breeding to enhance the size, number and edibility of seeds this would have been an incredibly time-consuming activity yielding very low return. We can see how low yield: this lifestyle is still practiced by a (dwindling) few of the San, the Little People of the Kalahari desert in Namibia, the last surviving natives of Africa who still make a living doing what your average human did 10,000 years ago, and for the preceding 250,000 years or however long you want to attribute to paleolithic man. And if collecting seeds was hugely unrewarding, so was collecting other carb products: root vegetables and edible leaves & fruit. In their natural, uncultivated original state, these plants are hard to harvest & frequently hard to eat, small & low-yield, and not exactly in abundance. Farming changed everything, eventually, but over thousands of years.

Farming also changed our gut: we evolved to live on a carb-rich diet. We accumulated microbes and enzymes in our guts to digest carbs. But that was a fairly recent development: academic estimates range from 5,000 to 7,000 years ago. That's as little as 200 generations for people: not a long time to evolve changes to our gut. And it shows: we still have a sizeable percentage of the population that cannot, for some reason, adapt to live on carbs, or who lose the ability to do so as they age. We call that a metabolic syndrome, or diabetes (T2D at least). Current research suggests that many related degenerative diseases (Parkinsons, Multiple Sclerosis, Alzheimers) are similarly rooted in a dysfunction of the gut lining, or of the gut biome - the ecosystem of bacteria and enzymes that live in our intestinal tract. This understanding is recent, but absolutely non-controversial.

A typical Canadian who moves north to live in the Northwest Territories, the Yukon or the Arctic will generally adopt a more-or-less modified Northern diet over time. Sure, they'll make baked goods & use tinned products, but fresh fruit & veg, dairy and especially baked goods are outrageously expensive in the north and generally **** quality: they've been in transit for extended times & suffered accordingly. Most people start hunting if game is available, and supplement bought foodstuff from the south with moose, caribou, deer, fish... whatever. If they can. Interesting thing: those who adjust to the northern diet often lose, over time, the ability to digest carbs well. If they move south again they often complain of stomach/gastro troubles, diarrhea, etc., until 4-6 months later they acquire the bacteria & enzymes required to digest breads & grain products. Not always the case, but then lots of people in the north do bake with flour, so that population would stay carb-adjusted.

So those of us with a 4,000 year history of carb-adjustment can lose it over an extended period. But what about natives, who "did the adjustment" last week, as it were? They've had access to southern foods since 1900 at best; the 1950s for many of them. Two generations; perhaps three. No wonder they can't metabolize carbs - especially grains & grain products. And of course they can't metabolize grain alcohol either. I suggest natives aren't overwhelmingly addicted because of life circumstances, social ills, poverty or the psychological & social fallout from the appalling way they were treated last century by the rest of the population (especially those running government institutions). They're easily addicted because we yanked them out of the stone age and into a carbohydrate diet (and exposure to alcohol) in two generations, not 200. Their bodies can't cope. It isn't a social, psychological or "existential" problem, whatever they may (& do) claim: its a gastric problem, a genetic problem.

Sorry. Back to your original question: "Is a Ketogenic diet harmful?"

Hell no. A Keto diet is what we evolved to live on for the last quarter-million years (til last Tuesday, just prior to Babylon). We do it fine. You don't need carbs in your diet. There is no such thing as an essential carb (latest advice from the FDA agrees with that, BTW). The FDA-approved Food Guide of the past 70 years is bogus, based on no "scientific" research and designed to mollify every food industry that lobbies government in Washington. Can we live on carbs? Absolutely! As hunter-gatherers we were opportunistic, constantly threatened by starvation, and capable of getting by for a while by using whatever we found handy. Fruit or honey? Check. Tubers & edible roots? Check. Seeds & leaves? Check. But living ON them in the absence of animal proteins and fat? Nope. Not until we invented farming, increased the yield and modified our gut. With some success, but considerable health consequences for many of us. We only treat a carb-rich diet as "normal' because it is now. It is not our 'natural state.' The good health of paleolithic natives prior to exposure to our carb-rich diet, and the relative absence of western cardio, endocrinological & neuro-degenerative diseases among them, attests to the safety of the Keto diet. (Good health not including periodic starvation & ever-present infectious diseases, of course, but that's another issue not really related to this discussion).

BTW, we have abundant medical experience with people living healthily on the Keto diet long-term. It has been known & used medically as a treatment for epilepsy since 1900, and has been widely used as treatment of choice for epileptic drug-resistant children in particular. But medicine has a much bigger problem with vertical "siloing" than industry: the tendency of each sub-specialty to ignore knowledge acquired in another, however closely related. As a result, doctors outside pediatric epilepsy wards haven't been paying attention.

So yeah, the Keto diet is safe: we've got 60 years experience watching people grow up and grow old using it to cope somewhat with epilepsy. And native communities world-wide did just fine on it for a couple hundred thousand years. You don't need fruit, grains, sugars or carbs of any kind to grow up, stay healthy, grow old. You many miss them for a while, but that's another thing altogether.

If you can cope with carbs, enjoy them. If they're killing you, wise up.
 

Guzzler

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Yeah, and have massive problems because of it. Adoption of a western diet has wrought incredible damage on native health and communities. Obesity and diabetes is epidemic: over 50% in many communities. Alcoholism is endemic: over 70% is an official figure, but it is probably near-universal in all who are not absolute "tea-total" abstainers. Indigenous peoples tend to develop diabetes and they cannot metabolize alcohol - not just in Canada, but everywhere around the globe.

Think about that: carbs as a substantial part of the diet date back to the adoption of sedentary farming in ancient Sumer - present-day Iraq. Prior to that wandering hunter-gatherers would collect edible seeds from progenitors of seed crops like wheat, (ancient versions of teff, etc.). Prior to 7,000 years of selective breeding to enhance the size, number and edibility of seeds this would have been an incredibly time-consuming activity yielding very low return. We can see how low yield: this lifestyle is still practiced by a (dwindling) few of the San, the Little People of the Kalahari desert in Namibia, the last surviving natives of Africa who still make a living doing what your average human did 10,000 years ago, and for the preceding 250,000 years or however long you want to attribute to paleolithic man. And if collecting seeds was hugely unrewarding, so was collecting other carb products: root vegetables and edible leaves & fruit. In their natural, uncultivated original state, these plants are hard to harvest & frequently hard to eat, small & low-yield, and not exactly in abundance. Farming changed everything, eventually, but over thousands of years.

Farming also changed our gut: we evolved to live on a carb-rich diet. We accumulated microbes and enzymes in our guts to digest carbs. But that was a fairly recent development: academic estimates range from 5,000 to 7,000 years ago. That's as little as 200 generations for people: not a long time to evolve changes to our gut. And it shows: we still have a sizeable percentage of the population that cannot, for some reason, adapt to live on carbs, or who lose the ability to do so as they age. We call that a metabolic syndrome, or diabetes (T2D at least). Current research suggests that many related degenerative diseases (Parkinsons, Multiple Sclerosis, Alzheimers) are similarly rooted in a dysfunction of the gut lining, or of the gut biome - the ecosystem of bacteria and enzymes that live in our intestinal tract. This understanding is recent, but absolutely non-controversial.

A typical Canadian who moves north to live in the Northwest Territories, the Yukon or the Arctic will generally adopt a more-or-less modified Northern diet over time. Sure, they'll make baked goods & use tinned products, but fresh fruit & veg, dairy and especially baked goods are outrageously expensive in the north and generally **** quality: they've been in transit for extended times & suffered accordingly. Most people start hunting if game is available, and supplement bought foodstuff from the south with moose, caribou, deer, fish... whatever. If they can. Interesting thing: those who adjust to the northern diet often lose, over time, the ability to digest carbs well. If they move south again they often complain of stomach/gastro troubles, diarrhea, etc., until 4-6 months later they acquire the bacteria & enzymes required to digest breads & grain products. Not always the case, but then lots of people in the north do bake with flour, so that population would stay carb-adjusted.

So those of us with a 4,000 year history of carb-adjustment can lose it over an extended period. But what about natives, who "did the adjustment" last week, as it were? They've had access to southern foods since 1900 at best; the 1950s for many of them. Two generations; perhaps three. No wonder they can't metabolize carbs - especially grains & grain products. And of course they can't metabolize grain alcohol either. I suggest natives aren't overwhelmingly addicted because of life circumstances, social ills, poverty or the psychological & social fallout from the appalling way they were treated last century by the rest of the population (especially those running government institutions). They're easily addicted because we yanked them out of the stone age and into a carbohydrate diet (and exposure to alcohol) in two generations, not 200. Their bodies can't cope. It isn't a social, psychological or "existential" problem, whatever they may (& do) claim: its a gastric problem, a genetic problem.

Sorry. Back to your original question: "Is a Ketogenic diet harmful?"

Hell no. A Keto diet is what we evolved to live on for the last quarter-million years (til last Tuesday, just prior to Babylon). We do it fine. You don't need carbs in your diet. There is no such thing as an essential carb (latest advice from the FDA agrees with that, BTW). The FDA-approved Food Guide of the past 70 years is bogus, based on no "scientific" research and designed to mollify every food industry that lobbies government in Washington. Can we live on carbs? Absolutely! As hunter-gatherers we were opportunistic, constantly threatened by starvation, and capable of getting by for a while by using whatever we found handy. Fruit or honey? Check. Tubers & edible roots? Check. Seeds & leaves? Check. But living ON them in the absence of animal proteins and fat? Nope. Not until we invented farming, increased the yield and modified our gut. With some success, but considerable health consequences for many of us. We only treat a carb-rich diet as "normal' because it is now. It is not our 'natural state.' The good health of paleolithic natives prior to exposure to our carb-rich diet, and the relative absence of western cardio, endocrinological & neuro-degenerative diseases among them, attests to the safety of the Keto diet. (Good health not including periodic starvation & ever-present infectious diseases, of course, but that's another issue not really related to this discussion).

BTW, we have abundant medical experience with people living healthily on the Keto diet long-term. It has been known & used medically as a treatment for epilepsy since 1900, and has been widely used as treatment of choice for epileptic drug-resistant children in particular. But medicine has a much bigger problem with vertical "siloing" than industry: the tendency of each sub-specialty to ignore knowledge acquired in another, however closely related. As a result, doctors outside pediatric epilepsy wards haven't been paying attention.

So yeah, the Keto diet is safe: we've got 60 years experience watching people grow up and grow old using it to cope somewhat with epilepsy. And native communities world-wide did just fine on it for a couple hundred thousand years. You don't need fruit, grains, sugars or carbs of any kind to grow up, stay healthy, grow old. You many miss them for a while, but that's another thing altogether.

If you can cope with carbs, enjoy them. If they're killing you, wise up.
Well said.
 

Brunneria

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My diabetic specialist nurse too me that there was a study of individuals who were given the target if getting their hba1 below 6.5 and the she said that a high percentage of the participants had developed heart problems due to their low blood glucose. She told me this after I had the Libre fitted and had got my estimated hba1 to 5.6. I an type 1 diabetic and have lchf diet.
I have asked her to forward me this study but I am yet to receive this. Has anyone else been told anything similar?

Have a look at the link below.
https://www.bloodsugar101.com/a1c-below-6-is-not-dangerous

Your nurse is probably misquoting the ACCORD study, whichnhas been misunderstood and misquoted by healthcare professionals for years - resulting in a great deal of harmful advice being given out to patients!
 

Jillyfl

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That's great !! I'll continue. Just that there's alot of fat in the diet and I'm not used to eating so much. I didn't want to clog my arteries. The course that I went on for heart failure advocated low fat ‍
 

Resurgam

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One of life's wicked pleasures for me is to undergo the usual ear-bashing about the dangers of eating low carb and then have my blood pressure taken and watch the confusion it causes.
"What is it?" I inquire - all innocence.
"As high as that. Tut tut." I respond to the report of my absolutely normal numbers. "All that meat must make me hot tempered."
 
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NicoleC1971

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Have a look at the link below.
https://www.bloodsugar101.com/a1c-below-6-is-not-dangerous

Your nurse is probably misquoting the ACCORD study, whichnhas been misunderstood and misquoted by healthcare professionals for years - resulting in a great deal of harmful advice being given out to patients!
IS that the one in which despite achieving lower HBA1cs through drugs (insulin, sulphonyureas) they did not achieve improved CV health?
So NOT the same then as someone eating less carbohydrate for example, needing less insulin (if type 1 or type 2) and having a better risk profile.
The only type 1 risk of achieving a low HBA1c (by which they mean normal sugar levels) is a loss of hypo awareness. When I asked the question at a recent course the consultant said she was unaware of any other issues.
 

Brunneria

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IS that the one in which despite achieving lower HBA1cs through drugs (insulin, sulphonyureas) they did not achieve improved CV health?.

The ACCORD study is the one where they used ‘aggressive’ medication to lower blood glucose in long term T2s and found patients had heart problems, so they stopped the study and publicised this.

Only trouble was, one of the meds used was later found to be linked with increased chance of heart problems, so there is no confirmed link between low HbA1c and heart attacks, since the medication may have been the problem. The drug in question is called Avandia and was later withdrawn from use.

All described in the link I provided.

Of course medical professionals all over the world mis-quote this study as ‘proof’ that low HbA1cs are harmful to both T1s and T2s.

Very frustrating to anyone who has bothered to actually read the facts rather than relying on the word-of-mouth version.
 
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Boo1979

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Your nurse is probably misquoting the ACCORD study
The Accord study looked specifically at patients with T2 diabetes over a 5 year period and reported increased all cause mortality in the intensive control group with somewhat contradictory findings re CVD and the effects of hypoglyceamia resulting from the intensive control.
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/97/1/41/2833135
The final 2 sentences of the article are:-

“If ACCORD has taught us anything, it is that there is no single recipe for glycemic management of CVD risk in T2DM. The old principles still hold: treat each patient as an individual (31) and first do no harm”
No s**t sherlock!!,
 
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ickihun

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My diabetic specialist nurse too me that there was a study of individuals who were given the target if getting their hba1 below 6.5 and the she said that a high percentage of the participants had developed heart problems due to their low blood glucose. She told me this after I had the Libre fitted and had got my estimated hba1 to 5.6. I an type 1 diabetic and have lchf diet.
I have asked her to forward me this study but I am yet to receive this. Has anyone else been told anything similar?
I don't know any study but carbs can spike sugars so it puts pressure on the vessels. Hence why diabetics prone to heart disease. As of heart problems I didn't see any warnings from cardiology when I was experiencing chest pains and distressful palpatations from very low carb eating. I watch my carbs but my thyroid meds were reduced a tiny bit but betablockers doubled.
Obesity gets the blame.
 
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In my view, properly formulated dietary ketosis is perfectly healthy. There is some opinion that seasonal ketosis is closer to nature. Seasonal ketosis meaning consumption of small amounts of carbs during the summer months when they would naturally have been available.

I wouldn’t disagree with that idea, but I also don’t think extended periods in ketosis are deleterious to health. Certainly I think it’s fine for a diabetic to be in this state for as long as is needed to return insulin sensitivity such that it’s effective enough to allow the metabolic flexibility needed for seasonal carbohydrate. Even if that process takes years to achieve its aim.

Speaking from my own perspective, I’ve been in very deep ketosis (3-6mmol/L) for one year, and my health has never been better. I’m willing to accept that it may not be the absolute best strategy for everyone long term, but for me it’s a better strategy than losing my feet, so I intend to stick with it indefinitely. Maybe in a couple of years time I’ll experiment with some summer carbohydrate and see how it goes, but I’m absolutely certain that for now at least, the ketogenic diet is better for me than the one that gave me diabetes.
 

Jillyfl

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In my view, properly formulated dietary ketosis is perfectly healthy. There is some opinion that seasonal ketosis is closer to nature. Seasonal ketosis meaning consumption of small amounts of carbs during the summer months when they would naturally have been available.

I wouldn’t disagree with that idea, but I also don’t think extended periods in ketosis are deleterious to health. Certainly I think it’s fine for a diabetic to be in this state for as long as is needed to return insulin sensitivity such that it’s effective enough to allow the metabolic flexibility needed for seasonal carbohydrate. Even if that process takes years to achieve its aim.

Speaking from my own perspective, I’ve been in very deep ketosis (3-6mmol/L) for one year, and my health has never been better. I’m willing to accept that it may not be the absolute best strategy for everyone long term, but for me it’s a better strategy than losing my feet, so I intend to stick with it indefinitely. Maybe in a couple of years time I’ll experiment with some summer carbohydrate and see how it goes, but I’m absolutely certain that for now at least, the ketogenic diet is better for me than the one that gave me diabetes.
Thank you!