LDL Spoofing - my experience of the Dave Feldman protocol

[ianf0ster]

I apologise in advance, but I only want posts in this thread from those who have actually tried the Dave Feldman protocol.

My second apology is because I'm starting this thread prematurely, since I don't yet know my 'After' lipid figures.
I don't even know my real 'Before' figures, since I was just doing it in order to avoid a difficult discussion about LDL with a GP.

However I do know my lipid figures at T2 Diagnosis and understand the science of the LCHF lifestyle and so know almost certainly, that since I was still losing some weight at the time my LDL figures at my 3month (actually 4 months) review would be considered 'worse' than previous.

So having heard of the 'Dave Feldman Protocol' in a post by @bulkbiker I decided to give it a go, even though I am not on a specifically Keto diet - just the lower end of Low Carb and aiming for between 20gms and 50gms of Carbs per day.
I have tested using Keto strips though they never showed any definitive Ketone levels. So at best only showed the very mildest level of Ketosis.

 

[ianf0ster]

OK, so what evidence is there that the Protocol works?
Well if you believe Dave Feldman's website https://cholesterolcode.com/extreme-cholesterol-drop-experiment/ , several hundred of the 'Keto Community' have done the protocol and self reported with a success rate of 85% and a typical LDL reduction of around 30%.
For those who were unsuccessful there was (on average) a small LDL increase. From memory I think it was around 5%.

So in my judgement it was worth trying, though I was only interested in doing the 3 1/2 days (2nd half) version.

What does it consist of?
Boosting your total calories consumed in each of the 3 days before the blood test Like this:
Throughout this experiment you should either keep to a standard LCHF ratio (75% fat, 20% protein, 5% carbs) or one with an even higher proportion of fat (such as 80% or 85% fat).

A “Low Day” will be any day you are having a very low amount of calories, yet keeping to a low carb, high fat ratio. This should be as low as you can reasonably stand without actually fasting. For example, if you found you could consume 1/3rd of your usual daily calories, you might try that.

For example, let’s say you commonly consume 2,100 calories a day. But you found you could drop it down by 2/3rds to 700 calories a day and get by.

A “High Day” will be like the Low Day above but with a very high amount of calories — but again, with the same or a higher percentage of total calories from fat. Unlike the Low Day, this should be as much food as you can reasonably eat. (NOTE: To be extra safe, we recommend not exceeding 3X the level of your maintenance level calories.)

For example, let’s say you commonly consume 1,500 calories a day. You might find you could get up to around 2X that amount to 3,000, or even 3X that amount for 4,500. Again, your own comfort level is key.

IMPORTANT: What to Avoid
Avoid coconut or MCT oils! These are metabolized more readily to ketones without first going through the bloodstream as lipids. You’d think this would result in lower LDL, but in some who have tried this it actually increased it unexpectedly.

Avoid coffee!This instruction wasn’t originally here, but we’ve had many who have shown this to be a common denominator when getting unexpected results. Lots of studies have been sent my way that show coffee can impact lipolysis and thus increase resulting LDL (even a day or two later). Note that at Denver Low Carb 2019, Dave said that this appears to be a Coffee effect rather than a Caffeine effect, because persons affected are even affected by Decaf.

 

[Mr_Pot]

What exactly is the point of this?

 

[ianf0ster]

So what did I do?
My plan was extremely simple, I was set to eat basically the same things each day, but I had a lunch out with friends to fit in on the 2nd day, so I had to increase Protein a little and reduce Fat a little on that day.

An actual High Calorie day from Dave Feldman:
Fat : 461gms
Protein: 194 gms
Carbs: 35gms

My Plan:
Fat: 446gms
Protein: 175gms
Carbs: 16gms

My Actual:
Day 1: Fat 446, Protein 175 , Carbs 16 Calories = 3640
Day 2: Fat 438, Protein 205, Carbs 22
Day 3: Fat 418, Protein 165, Carbs 15

So why did I fall short of my targets on Day 3?
I felt too queasy and just couldn't force down all the cheese I had planned. Indeed I had to substitute a less creamy cheese for my preferred choice in order to achieve as much as I did.

So when Dave Feldman says it is hard - it really was hard (at least for me).

What did I eat?

My original daily plan was for 400gms Mature Cheddar cheese . 4 large boiled Eggs, 100gms Brazil Nuts, 100gms Walnuts and 100gms Almonds plus 100ml of Extra Virgin Olive Oil.

 

[lindisfel]

What exactly is the point of this?

I used the site some time ago and I put my values in the risk calculator. I was ok but not brilliant.

If you can't withstand MD pressure to take statins it could help you minipulate some of your cholesterol readings by relatively
short term fat input changes just before your blood test. However, since you don't know the answer until you have your bloods done, it's academic until next time when you'll know, perhaps, how you'll respond.
D.

 

[Mr_Pot]

I used the site some time ago and I put my values in the risk calculator. I was ok but not brilliant.

If you can't withstand MD pressure to take statins it could help you minipulate some of your cholesterol readings by relatively
short term fat input changes just before your blood test. However, since you don't know the answer until you have your bloods done, it's academic until next time when you'll know, perhaps, how you'll respond.
D.

My method of just saying "no thanks" seems a lot easier.

 

[lindisfel]

I was interested in the citizen science that seemed relatively flawless.

 

[ianf0ster]

Please Guys, I don't want spurious posts in here.
Actual experiences of the Dave Feldman Protocol are welcome.

@lindisfel : Did it work for you so far as LDL was concerned?
Did you experience problems getting all the calories eaten?
Did you experience BG increases or feeling unwell after the day of the Blood Test?

 

[NicoleC1971]

Sorry for not meeting your criteria for having done this but pleased you are sharing your n of 1 with us all.
I may give this a go and take photos of my foods in DF style just so I can show the stain pushers how I've lowered my ldl. I feel as if the doctors have to offer me statins but haven't been too argumentative when I have refused.
My only road block is the NO COFFEE thing!
Good luck and let us know your numbers.

 

[ianf0ster]

So everything appeared to go near enough to plan up to and including the day of the Blood Sample s being taken, but since then i.e. for 7 days my BG readings have been up to slightly over 2.0 higher than normal comparing the same meals etc.

I know that their are several possible reasons for higher BG levels and I would like to list the ones which seem possible in mya case:

1. All of this coincides with a new batch of test strips. However I have had some quite lowish numbers on 2 occasions with this new batch and so I don't feel it is likely that they could be giving readings of up to 2.5 higher than the previous strips - or I would have been almost in Hypo levels on those 2 occasions!

2. Illness: I felt unwell the day after the Blood test. but it only lasted until the next day. So surely it was unlikely to have affected my levels for so long. Could it have been 'Keto flu'? Did the higher amount of Protein over those 3 days take me out of a mild Keto state and my resuming my usual diet then put me back into Keto?

3. Did the Protocol make my BG more sensitive to Carbs? I did a test eating just one big Protein and Fat meal yesterday - and my BG level only fluctuated by 0.2 between pre-meal and post meal ( 6.8 and 7.0 and the post prandial was actually at the lower figure). But on other days I got spikes after eating meals which also had approximately 0 carbs.

4. Did the Protocol make my BG more responsive to Protein? Well according to the test above, that seems unlikely since a really heavily loaded Protein & Fat meal appear to have no adverse effect - see above.

Of course perhaps all this testing Carbs and Protein was too late since my levels today are only about 1.0 higher than was normal for me before the Protocol.

Has anybody else experienced something like this ?

 

[Goonergal]

Has anybody else experienced something like this ?

Eating significantly more than usual - very low carb foods, just more quantity - always pushes my BG up, and for a few days. I’m not sure that, for me, the trade off in ‘fooling’ an LDL test would be worth it. Not when I don’t put any store by the conventional ‘wisdom’ on cholesterol.

 

[ziggy_w]

So everything appeared to go near enough to plan up to and including the day of the Blood Sample s being taken, but since then i.e. for 7 days my BG readings have been up to slightly over 2.0 higher than normal comparing the same meals etc.

I know that their are several possible reasons for higher BG levels and I would like to list the ones which seem possible in mya case:

1. All of this coincides with a new batch of test strips. However I have had some quite lowish numbers on 2 occasions with this new batch and so I don't feel it is likely that they could be giving readings of up to 2.5 higher than the previous strips - or I would have been almost in Hypo levels on those 2 occasions!

2. Illness: I felt unwell the day after the Blood test. but it only lasted until the next day. So surely it was unlikely to have affected my levels for so long. Could it have been 'Keto flu'? Did the higher amount of Protein over those 3 days take me out of a mild Keto state and my resuming my usual diet then put me back into Keto?

3. Did the Protocol make my BG more sensitive to Carbs? I did a test eating just one big Protein and Fat meal yesterday - and my BG level only fluctuated by 0.2 between pre-meal and post meal ( 6.8 and 7.0 and the post prandial was actually at the lower figure). But on other days I got spikes after eating meals which also had approximately 0 carbs.

4. Did the Protocol make my BG more responsive to Protein? Well according to the test above, that seems unlikely since a really heavily loaded Protein & Fat meal appear to have no adverse effect - see above.

Of course perhaps all this testing Carbs and Protein was too late since my levels today are only about 1.0 higher than was normal for me before the Protocol.

Has anybody else experienced something like this ?

Hi @ianf0ster,

Sorry, also no personal experience with the Feldman protocol, but really interested in your results.

As to higher blood sugar levels, my vote would be on the protein -- your protein intake was about 2 times as high as my average daily intake. Personally, I noticed that if I have more protein, especially late in the day, my blood sugar levels the next day are higher. Can't say for sure though as there is a line of reasoning saying that gluconeogenesis (from protein) is demand-driven. So, maybe it isn't the protein.

An alternative explanation might be stress -- maybe due to changing your diet and possibly also due to the upcoming blood test.

Keeping my fingers crossed for you and looking forward to your cholesterol results. Really interesting experiment.

 

[ianf0ster]

I will update this thread:
A).When/if I get my BG figures back into the range they were before the Protocol
B). When I get my results from the 2 Blood test, both Hba1c and Lipids. I have an appointment with (a different) GP at my local GP Practice on Friday 13th (September). They have a policy that you can't get actual results without seeing a Doctor, so I have to be a patient patient!

EDIT: One thing I forgot to mention, is that I weigh myself only once per week. As it happens that was before my midday meal on the 1st day of the protocol and of course 7 days later. I was a little surprised to find that at 1 week after the start of those 3 days of much higher calories, I weighed 4lbs more! Obviously 1lb could jut within tolerances, but 4lbs definitely means I gained weight. If I go back to losing weight at the same pace as before then it may take up to 3 or 4 weeks to lose that.

 

[lindisfel]

Please Guys, I don't want spurious posts in here.
Actual experiences of the Dave Feldman Protocol are welcome.

@lindisfel : Did it work for you so far as LDL was concerned?
Did you experience problems getting all the calories eaten?
Did you experience BG increases or feeling unwell after the day of the Blood Test?

I was interested in the risk calculator but I was not going to change my diet much because I have a more serious health problem that requires dietary modification besides low carb.
I put my fats up for three days before testing but my LDL stays stubbornly around 4.5.
I am just one person, but a consensus is made up of many individual responses.

The only change I have seen since going low carb is a much higher HDL and much lower Trig's. I have brought my GGT down from over 140 to 42.
I'm still here at 80 and don't weigh much more than I did at 22. With virtually no joint pains.
However, no insurance would cover me for going to States!

I am interested in all science and its easy to like Dave Fieldman
D.

 

[ianf0ster]

Update: The Dave Feldman Protocol appeared to work - (sort of).
OK, even though I was/am still in weight loss mode with LCHF my LDL was only slightly higher 1.97 vs 1.9) than before.

However it is fortunate that my GP practice is still in the stone age. Because my Triglycerides went up from 1.93 to 3.74 !
I was not expecting that, in fact I was expecting them to be lower.

Breakdown of results after approx. 3 months of LCHF plus D. Feldman protocol for 3 days before test:

April 2019: Hba1c 53, Tot Chol 3.6, HDL 1.2, LDL 1.9, Trig 1.93 , weight 170 lbs
August 2019: Hba1c 45, Tot Chol 5.0, HDL 1.33, LDL 1.97, Trig 3.74, ACR (Kidney) 3.2 weight 148 lbs

 

[ianf0ster]

So although the GP I saw wants another ACR test, she is happy that I am now in pre-diabetic range for Hba1c and is not concerned about my Triglycerides and is just happy that my HDL is up and my LDL is about the same as before.

I'm quite concerned about the Triglycerides. Unless the high reading is in some way caused by the Dave Feldman Protocol and thus was a temporary blip.

My next Blood Test has been loosely set for March 2020, so by then I should be out of the weight-loss phase of LCHF, thus I won't be repeating the Protocol for that one.

Has anybody heard of Triglycerides going through the roof on LCHF or on the Dave Feldman Protocol?

 

[bulkbiker]

So although the GP I saw wants another ACR test, she is happy that I am now in pre-diabetic range for Hba1c and is not concerned about my Triglycerides and is just happy that my HDL is up and my LDL is about the same as before.

I'm quite concerned about the Triglycerides. Unless the high reading is in some way caused by the Dave Feldman Protocol and thus was a temporary blip.

My next Blood Test has been loosely set for March 2020, so by then I should be out of the weight-loss phase of LCHF, thus I won't be repeating the Protocol for that one.

Has anybody heard of Triglycerides going through the roof on LCHF or on the Dave Feldman Protocol?

How long was the fast pre blood draw?

 

[ianf0ster]

The fast pre-blood draw was instructed to be 12hrs, actual was 12hrs 30 min. Would have been longer but it took me so darned long to get through all that food, plus I arrived in good time at the Blood test and was seen straight away since no others waiting.
I tend to walk to (and from) those appointments (weather permitting) it is only about 2 1/2 miles each way.

EDIT: Just to clarify, it was my GP who told me that the fast needed to be for 12hrs. All the GPs who have given me forms for Blood Tests (going back to the regular ones I had for Cholesterol over the last 10 to 15yrs) have stipulated 12hrs.
Though some members in these forums have said that fasting for Blood Lipid tests should be 15hrs or more. Perhaps the recommendation is different in different countries or across different Medical practices.

 

[ianf0ster]

Having scoured Dave Feldman's website for possible reasons for my high Trigs on the Blood test I have found 3 possible causes - one of which is more likely than the other two:-

1. Liquid Fat. As part of my 3 day Protocol, I was consuming 100ml of Olive Oil on each of the 3 days. The forums say that Bulletproof Coffee , fat bombs etc. can be problematic in raising Triglycerides.

2. Tea. I am a tea drinker and normally drink 4 to 5 cups of plain green tea per day (no sugar or milk). I almost certainly drank this amount during the protocol. The forums say (as does the Protocol description) that some people on Low Carb diets have a problem with Coffee (even decaf) raising triglycerides, however only 1 person has said they got a similar effect from a caffeinated drink and nobody (that I have found) has reported a confirmed problem with Tea.

3. Slow digestion and only a 12 1/2 hr fast before the blood draw. Dave Feldman has himself had abnormally high Trig readings when tested after less than 12 hrs, especially after a fatty meal. I know that my digestive system is slow - I have to take the purging solution prep for my regular colonoscopies approx. 12 hrs earlier than the accompanying leaflet says to do so - otherwise it would still be acting while I was travelling to the hospital.
So perhaps I need a 14hr fast window rather than a 12hr one, especially after a very high fat meal such as I had on the protocol.

 

[Ryhia]

HI Ian,

I know this thread is quite old but I was wondering if your Trigs came down? I was really panicked at my last official blood test in November and my trigs were up slightly - wondered if it could have been a reaction to stress. I have carried out the Feldman Protocol as a bit of a light hearted experiment, did the test the opposite way to what he said but it did work to an extent. Pity I didn't keep a food diary but I think I lived on cookie dough for 3 days. It was really hard work trying to eat so much particularly towards the end. Wondering if I have the stamina to try it again "proper" as I have a blood test in a few days time. In hindsight did you think it was worth doing?