Links to studies supporting Low Carb/showing calorie restriction ineffective?

[zand]

4. Sleep - a key factor in improved insulin sensitivity and how you metabolise nutrients

Yes I agree with this. My sleep patterns were messed up years ago because my son stopped breathing in his sleep when he was a baby. My GP refused to believe this had happened and refused to let me have an alarm to monitor him, so I set my alarm clock to wake me several times a night to check on him. After a couple of weeks of doing this I woke up naturally after only an hour's sleep. It took me years to get out of this habit and put my sleep patterns right again and in the meantime I had well and truly messed up my circadian rhythms so I put on weight. However one of those times I had set my alarm I found my son had stopped breathing again. It was worth me messing up my health to keep my child safe. But you just see me as fat and lazy and stupid and unable to count calories properly because I am now diabetic. Behind every messed up metabolism there is a story and it's not all about gorging on meat pies. Have a heart and listen to us, don't preach.

 

[Goonergal]

being overweight is a key risk factor in insulin resistance

And what if obesity is in fact a symptom of insulin resistance, rather than the other way around? For this n = 1, restriction of carbohydrates and reduction of insulin resistance through associated reduction in blood sugar levels, combined with intermittent fasting (to rest the pancreas and further enhance insulin sensitivity) has led to reversal of T2DM and significant weight loss (details in signature) where standard CICO approaches failed over several years.

You may regard this as anecdotal, and indeed it is. But there is no substitute for personal experience and that is what lies behind perceived evangelism here - when one has found a way of eating that has been truly life changing (and it really has), it is only natural to want others to experience the same benefits.

 

[ATZ]

I have just re-read this thread very carefully. I see no-one who has said calories dont matter. I do see many who have said that the make up of those calories has an effect above and beyond the standard calorie effect normally seen in those who have not got a metabolic condition. This effect, for many, overrides the calorific value of t.he food, thus making calorie counting a tool, but not the master of the situation.

But energy intake (calories) IS the master of the situation, even for those who have metabolic conditions.

If you have PCOS and your BMR is impaired - the solution? You have to eat less

If you have a thryroid condition - the solution? You have to eat less

If you're an overweight type 2 diabetic - the solution? You have to eat less

If hormones, such as insulin, governed bodyfat levels, how do you explain the success of the Rice Diet and MaPi 2 trials I cited earlier? I notice a complete lack of response to those facts and these are trials in type 2 diabetics?

I count both calories and carbs.

So you have an appreciation of your caloric intake. Funny that.

"Calories are all that matter" and "calories are part, but not all, of the equation" are equally true, it just depends on who you are applying them to regarding their health condition(s)

Here, on a Diabetes Site, the latter is our truth.

I've not one said Calories are all that matter, but they are the key to weight loss (assuming that's the topic of this thread) and the make up of those calories plays a role. If calories were irrelevant you wouldn't see people lose weight on the trials I cited above, but you do, including improvements in glycemia and makers of inflammation.

 

[ATZ]

Yes I agree with this. My sleep patterns were messed up years ago because my son stopped breathing in his sleep when he was a baby. My GP refused to believe this had happened and refused to let me have an alarm to monitor him, so I set my alarm clock to wake me several times a night to check on him. After a couple of weeks of doing this I woke up naturally after only an hour's sleep. It took me years to get out of this habit and put my sleep patterns right again and in the meantime I had well and truly messed up my circadian rhythms so I put on weight. However one of those times I had set my alarm I found my son had stopped breathing again. It was worth me messing up my health to keep my child safe. But you just see me as fat and lazy and stupid and unable to count calories properly because I am now diabetic. Behind every messed up metabolism there is a story and it's not all about gorging on meat pies. Have a heart and listen to us, don't preach.

I'm not preaching and I work with plenty of new Mums, I understand the impact of sleep on body composition and that's why I cited it as a key thing to focus on.

 

[ATZ]

And what if obesity is in fact a symptom of insulin resistance, rather than the other way around? For this n = 1, restriction of carbohydrates and reduction of insulin resistance through associated reduction in blood sugar levels, combined with intermittent fasting (to rest the pancreas and further enhance insulin sensitivity) has led to reversal of T2DM and significant weight loss (details in signature) where standard CICO approaches failed over several years.

You may regard this as anecdotal, and indeed it is. But there is no substitute for personal experience and that is what lies behind perceived evangelism here - when one has found a way of eating that has been truly life changing (and it really has), it is only natural to want others to experience the same benefits.

It's the other way around. If you understand how the body works as you get fatter you become insulin resistant. Outside of genetic/autoimmune development of T1D or T2D people don't present with insulin resistance without having excess overall or visceral bodyfat levels.

Your n=1 just shows you found a way of eating that led to you consuming less energy over time. As I said earlier literature demonstrates that LC and LCHF diet result in spontaneous calorie restriction, even if people feel they are "eating more." With intermittent fasting (not eating for a period of time) makes it less likely you're going to screw up your intake when you do eat, be that time restricted feeding type IF (a daily eating window) or 24hr fasts, alternate day fast etc etc.

I truly get the evangelism, if it works you want to talk about it and get everyone to adopt the same - "Diets" are always tribal.

However, LC and LCHF don't work for everyone and when they don't people end up coming to me confused "but I was only eating 20g of carbs per day" I never ate Pizza, cake or crisps" no, you were just eating too much food period, because you were confused as to the true mechanism of fat gain - calories, not carbs.

 

[zand]

However, LC and LCHF don't work for everyone and when they don't people end up coming to me confused "but I was only eating 20g of carbs per day" I never ate Pizza, cake or crisps" no, you were just eating too much food period, because you were confused as to the true mechanism of fat gain - calories, not carbs.

Perhaps they weren't counting their carbs correctly. The blame game works for both sides you know.

 

[HSSS]

So what if you are currently at a good weight, either not having been overweight at all or have already lost it, by any method?
How do you then control too high blood glucose levels without medication? (Other than low carb that we all in here know works)

Still not answered this.....

 

[Goonergal]

It's the other way around. If you understand how the body works as you get fatter you become insulin resistant

That is not a proven fact. It is your opinion. An opinion which is widely disputed. For example in the following.

http://clinchem.aaccjnls.org/content/64/1/7

 

[ATZ]

Perhaps they weren't counting their carbs correctly. The blame game works for both sides you know.

Provide someone with a list of predominately carb containing foods, tell them not eat those foods. One does not have to count anything to be on low carb diet.

In fact you've all told me repeatedly this is one of it's main advantages

 

[ATZ]

Still not answered this.....

In that particular scenario then lowering carbs would be an option if medication is not deemed favorable. That would suggest misdiagnosed Type 1 rather than type 2 symptoms though.

 

[Brunneria]

Interesting discussion.

I must admit that it is making me profoundly grateful that I have never stepped inside the sphere of a nutritionist/dietician/calorie expert, if this is a typical example of their ‘bedside manner’.

If you have PCOS and your BMR is impaired - the solution? You have to eat less

If you're an overweight type 2 diabetic - the solution? You have to eat less

And these two statements... goodness, what an excellent way to alienate your audience.

As someone with both PCOS and severe glucose dysregulation, I am absolutely delighted to report that eating very low (or even zero) carbs has allowed me to eat to my appetite without weight gain. And my appetite is significant This is after years of living with the spectre of calorie counting haunting my shoulder for decades. Now I eat plenty. Good portions. Nice satisfyingly fatty belly pork, lamb shoulder, sausages, cheese, cream in drinks and cooking. Delicious.

The result? I am comfortably eating between 500 and 1000 more of those pesky calorie things than i used to, each day, and I am not gaining weight.
Marvellous.

Years of counting and hassle, yet now I eat significantly more, rich, energy dense foods, and hunger is an rare visitor rather than a constant torturer.

I accept that orthodox thinking of healthcare professionals is behind the times (witness the recent court cases in Oz and South Africa), and that those at the forefront of change are often mocked and derided by the established order, but what really saddens me is that so many people in circumstances such as my own are being told that they must live lives of hunger, deprivation and discomfort (by constantly cutting our ‘calories’ to levels which practically guarantee malnutrition), when simply changing the advice could transform our lives. Thank goodness for this forum, eh? Where we can swap ideas and learn what works for each of us, instead of being told to be constantly hungry, and that our glucose dysregulation is basically due to us eating too much.

 

[ATZ]

That is not a proven fact. It is your opinion. An opinion which is widely disputed. For example in the following.

http://clinchem.aaccjnls.org/content/64/1/7

You can disount that article purely on it's author - Noakes. It's an opinion piece and he's not an unbiased source of information of the topic

 

[Brunneria]

You can disount that article purely on it's author - Noakes. It's an opinion piece and he's not an unbiased source of information of the topic

Ah, that statement is soooo informative.

What astonishes me, is that by that statement you are claiming that he is biased and you are not.
I suggest that you re-assess, because bias is unavoidable, and by implying that you are not biased, you undermine every post you have made on this forum.

 

[ATZ]

Interesting discussion.

I must admit that it is making me profoundly grateful that I have never stepped inside the sphere of a nutritionist/dietician/calorie expert, if this is a typical example of their ‘bedside manner’.

You cannot interpret tone on the internet, one disadvantage. I have every empathy for those who struggle with weight management and indeed why I got into this.

And these two statements... goodness, what an excellent way to alienate your audience.

As someone with both PCOS and severe glucose dysregulation, I am absolutely delighted to report that eating very low (or even zero) carbs has allowed me to eat to my appetite without weight gain. And my appetite is significant This is after years of living with the spectre of calorie counting haunting my shoulder for decades. Now I eat plenty. Good portions. Nice satisfyingly fatty belly pork, lamb shoulder, sausages, cheese, cream in drinks and cooking. Delicious.

The result? I am comfortably eating between 500 and 1000 more of those pesky calorie things than i used to, and I am not gaining weight.
Marvellous.

Years of counting and hassle, yet now I eat significantly more, rich, energy dense foods, and hunger is an rare visitor rather than a constant torturer.

I accept that orthodox training of healthcare professionals is behind the times, and that those at the forefront of change are often mocked and derided by the established order, but what really saddens me is that so many people in circumstances such as my own are being told that they must live lives of hunger, deprivation and discomfort (by constantly cutting their ‘calories to levels which practically guarantee malnutrition), when simply changing the advice could transform their lives. Thank goodness for this forum, eh? Where we can swap ideas and learn what works for each of us, instead of being told to be constantly hungry, and that our glucose dysregulation is basically due to us eating too much.

Again, fantastic.

As someone with PCOS has anyone ever advised you on the benefits of Inositol supplementation on improving symptoms?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5655679/

If you're "eating more" and not gaining bodyweight then the likelihood is your expenditure has improved in some form. Usually in the form of subconscious movement or NEAT (non exercise activity thermogenesis).

You all seem to want to pigeonhole me because I challenge the accepted normal here, without realising I too use low carb diets with clients, where appropriate.

 

[bulkbiker]

You can disount that article purely on it's author - Noakes. It's an opinion piece and he's not an unbiased source of information of the topic

So when he wrote the "Lore of Running" and it supported your hypothesis he was great but since he changed his mind he's now worthless?
Now I can see where you are coming from the orthodoxy of 20th century science is great and anything "new" must be put down.
Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[HSSS]

In that particular scenario then lowering carbs would be an option if medication is not deemed favorable. That would suggest misdiagnosed Type 1 rather than type 2 symptoms though.

No it doesn’t suggest type 1. It suggests you don’t know as much as you think you do about diabetes. Not all type 2 are overweight on diagnosis. Many of us have reached appropriate weights and continue to have high blood sugars unless we low carb. If we eat carbs instead of fat we get higher blood sugars and gain weight. Hence weight gain being a symptom of diabetes (disregulation of carb intake) not just an aggravating factor.

Medication I’d not deemed favourable to many because of the risk of side effects. Also the historic regime of medications to control diabetes has lead to it being labelled a progressive illness. Those that follow a low carb regime are finding it far less so and quite possibly not at all.

I think you need to read some more recent literature about diabetes and its causes and treatment.

 

[ATZ]

Ah, that statement is soooo informative.

What astonishes me, is that by that statement you are claiming that he is biased and you are not.
I suggest that you re-assess, because bias is unavoidable, and by implying that you are not biased, you undermine every post you have made on this forum.

Not really.

Tim Noakes did some superb work on hydration research, I still quote it to this day. But he lost his way when it comes to research around carbohydrates and obesity.

Surely that's the very definition of being unbiased?

 

[ATZ]

So when he wrote the "Lore of Running" and it supported your hypothesis he was great but since he changed his mind he's now worthless?
Now I can see where you are coming from the orthodoxy of 20th century science is great and anything "new" must be put down.
Thanks for clearing that up.

Complete strawman.

Low carb diet's are not new either. Wasn't it yourself who cited the benefits of the banting diet in a previous thread?

 

[bulkbiker]

Complete strawman.

Low carb diet's are not new either. Wasn't it yourself who cited the benefits of the banting diet in a previous thread?

Low carb comes from the 18th,19th and 21st centuries perhaps I should have been more specific and said "science" between 1970 and 2010.

 

[Brunneria]

Not really.

Tim Noakes did some superb work on hydration research, I still quote it to this day. But he lost his way when it comes to research around carbohydrates and obesity.

Surely that's the very definition of being unbiased?

Nope.
It just means that you are attempting to ‘**** with faint praise’, while displaying a casual knowledge of the subject.
Doesn’t endear me to your perspective in the slightest.