Links to studies supporting Low Carb/showing calorie restriction ineffective?

[lucylocket61]

In that particular scenario then lowering carbs would be an option if medication is not deemed favorable. That would suggest misdiagnosed Type 1 rather than type 2 symptoms though.

no, thats not how it works. There are many T2's who are slim, many ho remain T2's even when weight is lost.

and then there are type 3, 1.5/LADA, ..............................

 

[lucylocket61]

I too use low carb diets with clients, where appropriate.

when, and what makes them appropriate for you to use over other methods?

One does not have to count anything to be on low carb diet.

By the way, you seem to be under this misunderstanding that we have dont have to count carbs, and some of us also place a limit on our calories too, as we dont use fats in quite the same way as those without a metabolic condition either. Another area for you to research. Its not as simle as you have been taught. Hence the rising obesity crisis. CICO is flawed.

If you're "eating more" and not gaining bodyweight then the likelihood is your expenditure has improved in some form. Usually in the form of subconscious movement or NEAT (non exercise activity thermogenesis).

again, telling us we dont know how to count.

 

[lucylocket61]

But energy intake (calories) IS the master of the situation, even for those who have metabolic conditions.

If you have PCOS and your BMR is impaired - the solution? You have to eat less

If you have a thryroid condition - the solution? You have to eat less

If you're an overweight type 2 diabetic - the solution? You have to eat less

If hormones, such as insulin, governed bodyfat levels, how do you explain the success of the Rice Diet and MaPi 2 trials I cited earlier? I notice a complete lack of response to those facts and these are trials in type 2 diabetics?



So you have an appreciation of your caloric intake. Funny that.



I've not one said Calories are all that matter, but they are the key to weight loss (assuming that's the topic of this thread) and the make up of those calories plays a role. If calories were irrelevant you wouldn't see people lose weight on the trials I cited above, but you do, including improvements in glycemia and makers of inflammation.

what country are you in?

 

[zand]

Provide someone with a list of predominately carb containing foods, tell them not eat those foods. One does not have to count anything to be on low carb diet.

In fact you've all told me repeatedly this is one of it's main advantages

But you quoted 'less than 20g carbs' . If you don't count them how do you know that you aren't going over that with milk in tea and broccoli and runner beans etc? If soneone is trying to do less than 20g carbs then simply cutting out bread pizza and crisps isn't enough.

 

[ATZ]

what country are you in?

I'm not sure what relevance it has, but the UK.

 

[ATZ]

Nope.
It just means that you are attempting to ‘**** with faint praise’, while displaying a casual knowledge of the subject.
Doesn’t endear me to your perspective in the slightest.

How is that faint praise? I use and rate some Noakes work but not all. It's called being able to sift the good from the bad.

 

[lucylocket61]

I'm not sure what relevance it has, but the UK.

how long ago did you do your training? you may find things have changed a lot over the past 5 years in particular. My DN is now recommending low carbing for weight loss for diabetic T2's. She has recently re-trained to update her skills and is now being trained to look at low carb for weight loss due to the different metabolic needs of T2's. I cant say for other types as I only see her to talk to about my own diabetes.

This has been in the last 18 months.

I can only keep repeating - diabetics are different when it comes to weight loss and standard advice given.

 

[ATZ]

But you quoted 'less than 20g carbs' . If you don't count them how do you know that you aren't going over that with milk in tea and broccoli and runner beans etc? If soneone is trying to do less than 20g carbs then simply cutting out bread pizza and crisps isn't enough.

Where? In my anecdote?

There are no strict definitions of low carb diets but most people define low carb as less than 120g of carbohydrate per day, ketogenic being more like <50g per day.

 

[ATZ]

how long ago did you do your training? you may find things have changed a lot over the past 5 years in particular. My DN is now recommending low carbing for weight loss for diabetic T2's. She has recently re-trained to update her skills and is now being trained to look at low carb for weight loss due to the different metabolic needs of T2's. I cant say for other types as I only see her to talk to about my own diabetes.

This has been in the last 18 months.

I can only keep repeating - diabetics are different when it comes to weight loss and standard advice given.

Low carb is a definite treatment optiom for T2D, but it's not the only effective one though as I've shown and as you've repeatedly ignored in this thread.

So again if T2D were metabolically unique how do you explain the results of those trials?

Edited by moderator to remove unverified information.

 

[Brunneria]

As someone with PCOS has anyone ever advised you on the benefits of Inositol supplementation on improving symptoms?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5655679/

Thank you for the link. I will do some further research.

If you're "eating more" and not gaining bodyweight then the likelihood is your expenditure has improved in some form. Usually in the form of subconscious movement or NEAT (non exercise activity thermogenesis).

We be (vaguely) in agreement here.
I have moved into long term ketosis, and dropped carbs. So my body is handling my very low carb foods very differently, and with lower insulin sloshing about, the energy reaching where it needs to go, instead of being sidelined into fat storage by the insulin.

Thank goodness for low carb, eh?

However, it indicates to me that calories are not a useful metric for my intake.

 

[ATZ]

Thank you for the link. I will do some further research.

No problem. Everyone I've ever advised it to with PCOS has seen major improvements.

We be (vaguely) in agreement here.
I have moved into long term ketosis, and dropped carbs. So my body is handling my very low carb foods very differently, and with lower insulin sloshing about, the energy reaching where it needs to go, instead of being sidelined into fat storage by the insulin.

Thank goodness for low carb, eh?

However, it indicates to me that calories are not a useful metric for my intake.

Are you aware fat can be stored in the absence of insulin?

When you eat fat it gets packaged into what's known as chylomicrons and gets released over the body and mainly stored inside fat cells. That has little to do with insulin, but I guess people here only like to mention the insulin role in lipoprotein lipase (LPL) and ignore ASP (fat can be stored and is stored without the presence of insulin).

This explains why people can fail to lose weight on a low carb diet. Because their energy intakes are still too high.

 

[Brunneria]

No problem. Everyone I've ever advised it to with PCOS has seen major improvements.



Are you aware fat can be stored in the absence of insulin?

When you eat fat it gets packaged into what's known as chylomicrons and gets released over the body and mainly stored inside fat cells. That has little to do with insulin, but I guess people here only like to mention the insulin role in lipoprotein lipase (LPL) and ignore ASP (fat can be stored and is stored without the presence of insulin).

This explains why people can fail to lose weight on a low carb diet. Because their energy intakes are still too high.

Yes. I am aware of those things.
However, you are on a forum for diabetics, with a high proportion of T2s. Insulin and insulin resistance is a dominant feature in our lives.

Are you aware that some people get insulin resistance, which ramps up higher and higher when those individuals eat carbs?
Therefore, avoiding carbs allows insulin resistance to drop.

And are you aware that different parts of the body (fat cells, organs, muscles) become insulin resistant at different rates, and to different extents? So it is perfectly possible for a T2 to lay down fat stores while their muscles are too insulin resistant to accept the glucose that is being tucked away elsewhere.

Ketones do not get ‘locked out’ in this manner.

 

[ATZ]

Yes. I am aware of those things.
However, you are on a forum for diabetics, with a high proportion of T2s. Insulin and insulin resistance is a dominant feature in our lives.

Are you aware that some people get insulin resistance, which ramps up higher and higher when those individuals eat carbs?
Therefore, avoiding carbs allows insulin resistance to drop.

If that was universally the case how to you explain the efficacy of the two high carb diet examples I posted in treating T2D?

And are you aware that different parts of the body (fat cells, organs, muscles) become insulin resistant at different rates, and to different extents? So it is perfectly possible for a T2 to lay down fat stores while their muscles are too insulin resistant to accept the glucose that is being tucked away elsewhere.

Ketones do not get ‘locked out’ in this manner.

Fat is only "laid down" when there is an excess of energy present. So while insulin resistance can make things more difficult you cannot get fat without over eating.

 

[ATZ]

I'll await the cognitive dissonance to this one too:

The ketogenic diet has recently received much attention for its promise of treating obesity and type 2 diabetes. However, the enthusiasm for its potential benefits exceeds the current evidence supporting its use for these conditions. Although the temptation is great to recommend a potentially novel approach for otherwise difficult-to-treat diseases, it is important to remain grounded in our appraisal of the risks, benefits, and applicability of the diet to avoid unnecessary harm and costs to patients.

Is the ketogenic diet more effective for weight loss than other diets?

In a meta-analysis of 13 studies lasting longer than a year, researchers found that the ketogenic diet was associated with less than a kilogram of additional weight loss over high-carbohydrate, low-fat strategies.This difference, although statistically significant, may not be clinically significant. Furthermore, a meta-analysis of 32 controlled feeding studies found that energy expenditure and fat loss were greater with low-fat diets compared with ketogenic diets.

Any diet that results in weight loss does so because it reduces calorie intake. The ketogenic diet, when used for weight loss, is no different.

The salient questions are whether it is sustainable and whether it promotes long-term health. No studies, to our knowledge, have evaluated ketogenic diets for cardiovascular events or mortality, although observational studies in the broader low-carbohydrate diet literature suggest increased all-cause mortality.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...nals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2737919

 

[bulkbiker]

Fat is only "laid down" when there is an excess of energy present

Is your hypothesis.
Overeating studies where excess energy is taken in without increasing exercise such as those carried out by Sam Feltham and Jason Wittrock with no weight gain demonstrate the lie to this particular piece of your theory.. so like the black swan your hypothesis is denied as being 100% correct.

 

[HSSS]

I’m bored now.

It’s not just weight loss. It’s diabetes. What about that do you not hear?

Diabetes is not caused by weight gain alone
Diabetes causes weight gain
Carbs, as glucose in the blood cannot be utilised by the cells properly for energy thus get stored as fat. This is not the normal process. A reasonable amount of calories taken as carbs don’t behave for diabetics as they do for non diabetics. The same reasonable amount of calories as fat does behave normally.

I give up.

 

[lucylocket61]

which specific trials? the rice one?

Or the Ma-Pi 2 diet, which is a largely vegan 70% carbohydrate containing based diet:

Shows that that diet is better than the standard dietary advice given to T2's. To be honest, almost anything is better than the Eatwell plate for a T2. It was not a low carb diet, and was to do with inflammation, not blood glucose control.

The control group were given 49% carbs. From the study:

The Ma-Pi 2 diet consisted of whole grains, vegetables, and legumes.The control diet was adapted to the Mediterranean culinary style.

Not the same type of carbohydrates. We all know, on here, that refined carbs spike our blood sugar levels quickly.

https://drc.bmj.com/content/3/1/e000079

 

[lucylocket61]

I'll await the cognitive dissonance to this one too:





https://jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...nals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2737919

your link, when clicked, says Bad Request

 

[lucylocket61]

I'll await the cognitive dissonance to this one too:





https://jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...nals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2737919

UNLESS you are a diabetic. Have you understood that yet?

 

[lucylocket61]

The Ma-Pi 2 diet, linked upthread also consisted of 25 diabetics, over 21 days, with no differentiation or mention of how many were on oral meds and how many were diet control. There were 26 non diabetics.

Also I couldnt see a chart/graph or similar for the results for their weightless, blood glucose levels after, or any follow up after the initial 21 days for either group, so a link to that would be helpful.