Links to studies supporting Low Carb/showing calorie restriction ineffective?

[Guzzler]

Because it shows the importance of weight management on health parameters in general.

Exactly! It is not all about CICO! Give the man a coconut.

 

[ATZ]

Exactly! It is not all about CICO! Give the man a coconut.

Head, brick wall.

CICO is what causes weight gain or loss.

 

[lucylocket61]

I am in general against anecdotes yes, you all here seem to live by "personal experience" though.

As I said. He ate 80% of his calories daily from ice cream. It's all there if you go look for it with a website dedicated to it.

nope, if you are quoting studies, you give the links, correct links. Its not my job to use my time to search for stuff.

 

[zand]

I am in general against anecdotes yes, you all here seem to live by "personal experience" though.

As I said. He ate 80% of his calories daily from ice cream. It's all there if you go look for it with a website dedicated to it.

Lol well personal experience is the only thing that matters. If something doesn't work for you personally it doesn't matter if todays science says it should.

 

[Guzzler]

Head, brick wall.

CICO is what causes weight gain or loss.

Completely ignoring hormonal imbalance, how can you disiss something so complex as the human metabolic system?

 

[HSSS]

The full results are discussed in the video linked. You clearly didn't watch it.

Yes I did. Please don’t make assumptions about me. And I went to the website he quotes, which doesn’t work btw as it’s expired.

The results do not include any blood sugars. Kind of important to a diabetic wouldn’t you say?

And who knows what it did to his levels even as a non diabetic (going into the experiment at least)? He advocates weightloss as a first measure regardless of how it’s achieved then fine tune for how you eat. Not a lot of good if it’s sending you hyper, giving you complications and making you sicker despite a possible weight loss.

Edit: and I just rewatched it now to make sure of my points!

 

[ATZ]

Lol well personal experience is the only thing that matters. If something doesn't work for you personally it doesn't matter if todays science says it should.

Not really.

Science informs practice. If it doesn't work for individual it's down to individual application and adherence.

For example keto diets work well for many. For me personally I couldn't stick to one. Does that mean they don't work? No, just means for me it wasn't the right choice.

 

[Guzzler]

Just a note about ketones being a "back up fuel"

Sorry folks, to go over this again but...

The human foetus is in a state of ketosis and the neonates remain so if fed only human breast milk. If ketosis was a back up fuel then why on earth would the body rely on it? Why would our species evolve by putting our offspring at such a disadvantage?
So, there are carbs in breast milk but these are oligosaccharides and quite different from the carbs in your Warburtons sliced white.
Foetal and neonatal developement is intrinsically linked to fuel and the type of fuel used.

 

[Guzzler]

Not really.

Science informs practice. If it doesn't work for individual it's down to individual application and adherence.

For example keto diets work well for many. For me personally I couldn't stick to one. Does that mean they don't work? No, just means for me it wasn't the right choice.

You might find that you put a little more effort into sticking to a ketogenic diet if you had been diagnosed with a life altering condition such as... er... Type 2 Diabetes.

 

[HSSS]

Science informs practice. If it doesn't work for individual it's down to individual application and adherence.

So it’s not possible that the science is only applicable in certain conditions, ie those that it was developed within

and not possible that changing those parameters (in this instance metabolic disease of diabetes) changes the results?

 

[HSSS]

I will ask this again, for the third time: who do you recommend low carb diets for, under what circumstances, and why do you choose to recommend them for those people?

I'm not ruling out individual differences to dietary responses, I prescribe low carb diets sometimess myself.

I’m still really interested in your answers to @lucylocket61 and how you can be arguing low carb doesn’t work (because you claim it’s actually low calorie not low carb that works and matters) and still prescribe it?

 

[bulkbiker]

For me personally I couldn't stick to one.

Possibly because your eyes and toes didn't depend on it?
Health is a major motivator I find..

 

[Guzzler]

I am still wondering why someone would prescribe a diet lower in carbs to some clients when he or she isn't totally on board with the efficacy.

 

[Brunneria]

I'm not ruling out individual differences to dietary responses, I prescribe low carb diets sometimess myself. But if individual differences are in important why does everyone here rule out any other diet than LC or LCHF for diabetes management? When I've shown they can be successfully treated with a large percentage of carbohydrate in your diet in clinical settings?

This being the case it demonstrates that something more fundamental than hormones is responsible for improvements in the majority of cases.

@ATZ
I was going to respond to this, in detail, but I see that @Lucylocket has already done so - excellently - saying exactly what I would have done. You have brusquely dismissed her contributions, so there is no point me wasting the pixels saying it all over again.

I’m increasingly concerned that you have backed yourself into a corner, by using simplistic arguments and quoting studies out of context. At the same time, you reject the opportunity to increase your understanding - after all, this is a forum full of people with extensive personal experience of the subject, often with years of daily blood glucose counting, food intake monitoring, and regular monitoring by health care professionals qualified to monitor and treat diabetes. We are a superb resource for someone interested in furthering their understanding of real diabetes ‘in the wild’ rather than in the selective confines of academic studies. And (as usually happens with real people outside those artificial confines) we don’t fit into the neat boxes that you would like us to.

What usually happens when people back themselves into a corner like this, is that they become progressively more dogmatic, more unpleasant and more derogatory. I would urge you not to go any further down that route, since it will quickly bring you in conflict with the forum rules.

 

[lucylocket61]

@ATZ . Please can you tell me your qualifications?

I'm a fully qualified nutritionist

as I have not come across anyone in the field of nutrition who is both qualified and as focused on a small area of dietary advice as you are. I note you are in the UK, so presumably therefore carry UK qualifications to practice?

 

[ATZ]

nope, if you are quoting studies, you give the links, correct links. Its not my job to use my time to search for stuff.

Sounds pretty closed-minded if you won't simply look something up. Anyway, you're correct, his website has since expired, but press around the experiment and his youtube channel remain, the latter documenting the whole process day by day.

After eating 2,000 calories-worth of ice cream every day, for 100 days, Anthony’s blood lipids all improved, his HDL cholesterol (the good one) was higher, the LDL cholesterol was lower, and he had dramatically lowered the level of his triglycerides. Most surprisingly, despite all the sugar he put in his body, his glucose level slightly declined too.

https://www.odditycentral.com/news/man-loses-32-pounds-eating-only-ice-cream-for-100-days.html

“The message here is not that this is an ideal diet to permanently sustain, the message is specifically to show how an energy deficit overrides specific food sources when it comes to weight/fat loss,” Anthony said, adding that despite feeling miserable through more than half the ice-cream diet, this was definitely not his last stunt diet. So expect to see even more crazy experiments from him.

Blood work video is here:

This is but one anecdote (as you guys love them) demonstrating the importance of energy balance rather than food choices on weight gain or, more importantly, weight loss.

A reminder that this thread is asking for evidence that CICO doesn't work, there is tonnes of both anecdotal and scientific evidence demonstrating that CICO is the underlying mechanism behind bodyweight change.

 

[ATZ]

Lol well personal experience is the only thing that matters. If something doesn't work for you personally it doesn't matter if todays science says it should.

So how do you explain keto not working for me? Is that because the science is wrong or because I failed?

Look, I get that people don't like their preferred dietary choice challenged, people are tribal about it. For every evangelical vegan there's an evangelical carnivore, for every person who lost weight on a low carb diet there are those who did so eating lots of carbs too.

So what does this tell us? That the science (calories in calories out) is wrong? Or typically that people's application of it is?

 

[ATZ]

Just a note about ketones being a "back up fuel"

Sorry folks, to go over this again but...

The human foetus is in a state of ketosis and the neonates remain so if fed only human breast milk. If ketosis was a back up fuel then why on earth would the body rely on it? Why would our species evolve by putting our offspring at such a disadvantage?
So, there are carbs in breast milk but these are oligosaccharides and quite different from the carbs in your Warburtons sliced white.
Foetal and neonatal developement is intrinsically linked to fuel and the type of fuel used.

This isn't evidence of anything, as convenient as it sounds.

Mammals switch to ketone utilisation for foetuses to maximise the chance of survival, preserving glucose for growth. Growing is energy-intensive.

"Thus during maternal starvation ketone bodies may maximize chances for survival both in utero and during neonatal life by restraining cell replication and sustaining protein and lipid stores in fetal tissues"

From: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3884390

Ask yourself this, if ketones are the preferred fuel source why do we not run on them under typically under normal mixed, omnivorous, dietary conditions?

 

[ATZ]

I am still wondering why someone would prescribe a diet lower in carbs to some clients when he or she isn't totally on board with the efficacy.

Please cite where I've said low carb dets don't work?

All I've said is that you're confused about why they do. This thread is about the efficacy of LC or calorie-controlled diets over time.

 

[ATZ]

I’m still really interested in your answers to @lucylocket61 and how you can be arguing low carb doesn’t work (because you claim it’s actually low calorie not low carb that works and matters) and still prescribe it?

Again, please demonstrate on this thread or anywhere on the forum where I've said LC diets don't work.