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Meat effect on fasting blood sugar

Discussion in 'Prediabetes' started by Sapien, Aug 16, 2019.

  1. Sapien

    Sapien Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

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    I have noticed that if I eat more meat at dinner than usual that my fasting blood sugar the next morning is higher.

    My fasting blood sugar has been reading 79 (4.4) to 84 (4.7) over the past several weeks. I was so happy to consistently see blood sugar in a very healthy range each morning. The past two evenings I ate about 9 oz of chicken one night and 9-10 oz beef the next night (about double what I would typically eat). The following morning my blood sugar was higher than it has recently been - 91 (5.1) and 93 (5.2) even though I also ate less carbs both days (especially at dinner) than typically (about 65 grams / day vs typically 100 -140 grams).

    I realize meters aren’t always accurate but there seems to be a directional correlation here since I noticed a similar effect a month ago.

    I also tested the past four nights at two hours after dinner and was 95 (5.3) to 97 (5.4) both after eating more meat and less meat. The nights with less meat I ate more carbs (a side of hummus) without much different effect directly after the meal. The difference shows up the next morning (higher after eating more meat rather than more carbs!) When I eat a larger amount of meat for dinner the blood sugar barely drops by morning otherwise it goes down nicely overnight. Fish (salmon, sardines, herring) doesn’t seem to have quite the same effect. Maybe it is the fat in the meat rather than the protein?

    Is this a typical reaction? (I think I have seen a couple comments in the forum related to higher fasting BG after eating more meat than usual.)

    I thought less carbs would equal lower fasting BG, but it seems that only works up to a point.

    I would appreciate input from those more experienced with low carb eating.
     
  2. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    I am not absolutely convinced that protein taken in the evening can have an affect, what?, 12 hours later.

    If you are thinking gluconeogenesis then gng is demand driven not supply driven.
     
  3. Sapien

    Sapien Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

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    It was about nine hours 9pm to 6am. My stomach still felt a bit “heavy” in the morning. There are three key variables versus other days - protein, saturated fat, and lower carbs. I was thinking gluconeogenesis from the (excess) protein or temporary increase in insulin resistance from the saturated fat. I have also noticed (strangely) that after days I eat 60 to 80 carbs my next morning blood sugar seems to be a bit higher than when I eat over 100 but less than about 150. Usually not a big difference but there seems to be a trend.

    If gng is demand driven what happens with consumption of “excess” protein? What then is the pathway for excess protein that is consumed to be utilized? (and stored as fat?)
     
  4. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    Define excess protein. Also not a fan of sat fat = IR.
     
  5. Sapien

    Sapien Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

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    Excess protein would be protein not needed for maintenance or growth of muscle (muscle protein synthesis) and other bodily uses that are not ultimately for use as energy.
     
  6. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    I meant the quantities. As you know there are those who follow a fully carnivore diet and as far as I know they do not suffer an excess of protein or galloping gng.
     
  7. Tophat1900

    Tophat1900 Type 3c · Well-Known Member

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    You can google how insulinogenic foods are, beef has a reasonable demand which will effect levels to varying degrees per person. I think lamb for example has the least impact due to its high fat content.

    Some excess protein will be stored, but most of the rest of the excess will be excreted. Cold water fish has a good amount of fat, so you won't see the same effect compared to beef. Especially if eating lean cuts of steak. This is not a reason to not eat beef, the benefits of it far outweigh not eating it. Being it's a night time meal, you could experiment with different amounts if it concerns you.
     
  8. Sapien

    Sapien Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

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    I found this interesting article on protein and gluconeogenisis. It helped me wrap my head around the whole subject a bit better.

    http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html?m=1

    Maybe the protein has some effect on release of glucagon which makes my liver dump a big more glucose that results in a higher fasting glucose.
     
  9. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    In terms of ratios I think you'll find that beef has more fat than fish.
    E.g. rib eye steak has 21g per 100g
    salmon has 4.2g per 100g
     
  10. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    This whole "GNG is demand-driven" business is all very well & good if one ignores hepatic insulin resistance and 'runaway liver'. Protein in "excess" can (but not necessarily will) give the liver the tools it needs to raise fasting glucose in those who are extremely insulin resistant. In the past, I've seen it in myself with absolute cast-iron predictability and repeatability. It's also a documented phenomenon. I'm unsure why some folk continue to argue against it just because it doesn't affect them personally, but I guess we're all entitled to an opinion :D
     
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    #10 Jim Lahey, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:36 AM
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  11. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    I argue against it being a problem of less than 1.0mmol in this case.

    If people are scared of fat esp sat fat and are scared of carbs and then scared of excess protein what might they ask themselves? What the blummin' eck Can I Eat?

    Sarcopaenia may not worry some but it worries me more than a very small rise in bg does. :D
     
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  12. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. And I totally agree that being afraid of fat and protein is unwarranted. I'm only pointing out that "excess" protein can and does impact fasting blood sugars in some individuals - for a variety of reasons - some of which are well understood and some probably less so.

    In the end, unused amino acids must either be excreted, or first reconstructed into glucose before lipogenesis can convert them into fat, and therein lies the rub (the glucose part). I will also make myself clear by stating that insufficient protein is not a good thing either, but the "correct" amount can be quite a fine line for those with severe insulin resistance.
     
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  13. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    Which is exactly why I asked upthread for the definition of excess.
    You will be aware that as we age esp after 50 the efficiency of protein metabolisation diminishes therefore we may need more not less.

    If the OPs goal is ketosis then it must be remembered that this cannot happen without gng.
    I would pose the question that someone with IR Diabetes who sees regular FBGs in the 4s having severe IR. It took me the best part of a year of LCHF to get readings in the 4s on a regular basis and I am convinced this was not due to protein intake but may have been due to the inability to excercise to any meaningful degree.

    (Have you seen the Banting Lecture by Schultz? Highly recommend on this subject).
     
  14. Mbaker

    Mbaker Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    What time are you eating your last meal.
     
  15. BrianTheElder

    BrianTheElder Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    When I eat more protein, my fbg always goes up. I think some of us are more prone to gng than others, so it kicks in when there is any "excess".
    I am not saying this is the same for everyone, but I have a history of this happening to me over many years. I think 60g/day of protein for me is enough.
    The way metformin works, and works so well for many people, is that it limits gng.
     
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  16. Sapien

    Sapien Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

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    Excessive protein was about 9 oz of beef (76 gr protein) after eating about 8 oz of chicken (70 gr protein) for lunch. Breakfast that day was eggs. Finished dinner about 8:45pm. Lunch and dinner were eaten with a big salad and some Greek yogurt with berries. Carbs come from veggies, berries, yogurt and nuts so the day was only 62 net carbs plus about 47 grams of fiber.

    I would usually eat more like 4 oz of fish or meat. I basically substituted extra meat for carbs. I usually eat a little more than double the carbs and much less meat.

    What surprised me was that each time I eat extra meat in place of carbs I see higher morning blood sugar. (Not dramatic +0.5 to +0.8 mmol, within the margin of error of meters but nevertheless there seems to be a clear pattern).
     
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  17. Sapien

    Sapien Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

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    Dinner (last meal) was bit late ending at 8:45 pm. The later dinner does’t seem to effect the morning blood sugar when I eat less meat.
     
  18. Sapien

    Sapien Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

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    I have read that the body can only use about 30 grams (max 40 grams) of protein per meal for muscle building/maintenance. The rest would then be “excess” that would be used for energy or excreted.
     
  19. Mbaker

    Mbaker Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    Meat does take longer to digest I believe. There are hypothesis that eating circa 3 hours before the circadian rhythm naturally kicks in (I think between 21 -22.00) is not optimum.

    You seem to be quite experimental, why not try eating the last meat meal around 17.00 and see what happens, followed by the same and a 20 minute walk.
     
  20. Cocosilk

    Cocosilk Gestational · Well-Known Member

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    Good article. Thanks
     
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