My personal hypothesis - T2 - Low insulin Diet

[CherryAA]

Apologies @CherryAA
I have only just seen that you had responded to my earlier post.

My point for including the two references in my post was simple - you had referred to hypos in type 2 diabetics as being 'more in their minds than real'. Those links demonstrated that other people have hypos too. Having Type 2 diabetes is no protection from other hypo causes and people can simultaneously have Type 2 and Reactive Hypoglycaemia or other hypo causing medical conditions. I am sure that those of us who have experienced real hypos would not appreciate having their experiences dismissed as imaginary.

Perhaps in future you could distinguish between false hypos (to which I think you were referring), and actual hypos where blood glucose drops so low it affects them mentally and physically?

The only way to determine whether a hypo is real or false is to use a meter. My own hypo experiences went on for years with no medical professional taking me seriously and no method to prove they were hypos. Happily my meter and my Libre have provided me with this proof. As you can imagine, I find it disappointing to find people on this forum taking a similarly dismissive attitude.

I'm sorry @Brunneria - that was very badly worded I know what I want to say, but sometimes the actual saying of it goes bit awry. I never have any intention at all to undermine the very real and difficult battle anyone goes through.

I am well aware that hypos' are real and are dangerous and are difficult to manage.

To my mind (and maybe this is wrong too) " real "hypos seem to be rather more a phenomenon of things like reactive hypoglycaemia and T1 than I've seen them being reported much in people with non insulin dependent T2 diabetes. In these people T2, we seem to be more prone to false hypos's i.e hypos that come from quickly changing but still high glucose levels or hypos that meters have shown looking to be hypos , but in practice have no symptoms. Of course it is then difficult to tell if that is because one has become immune to recognising the symptoms, which in an insulin dependent person could be disastrous or simply that the meters themselves are subject to quite big errors and that error can easily be the difference between a normal and hypo reading.

Thus if you have T2 diabetes your meter shows hypo level, you take no medication that is insulin dependent, then the balance of probability might tip towards the " false " hypo hypthesis initially especially if the reading is coming from a libre where we have had many reports of them running a little low in numerous strands. Thus whilst a reading under 4 for an non-insulin dependent diabetic is something to take seriously and keep an eye on carefully, its not necessarily something to panic over immediately whereas for someone injecting insulin or similar medications there is a clear and present immediate danger.

I have a friend (T2) who was experiencing daily hypos whilst on insulin of serious magnitude. Via LCHF he no longer injects, occasional his blood sugars run a litle low - the two reactions to him are worlds apart. Hope that makes more sense in the context .

 

[CherryAA]

Wow, that is quite a large but delicious looking meal. How will you change your eating regime when you arrive at your target weight? I guess you will need up your calorie intake so will you add a meal to each day or shift to 7 courses perhaps . Really impressed with your determination and watching with interest..
Very best of luck.

Thanks, I must admit the second stage was to eat much more nutrient dense foods which turned out to be 1600 calories ( by mistake) they look much less impressive on the plate - but currently caused bigger weight loss and higher ketones ( 70% fat, 40g carbs ) - today's effort, pre meal 4.4, post meal high 4.4 !!!!! tis all a bit bizarre to be honest.


I do think I'm sold on he one meal a day idea, its remarkably easy once you get used to it, and creates real joy in anticipation of good food every day - that has always killed diets for me I gues going forward a limited eating window will figure large in my plans.

The one thing that has amazed me is that I have eaten a single calorie other than black tea or coffee outside the meal for the entire time. The binary choice really does see to make a difference as opposed to exercising a little willpower every time I go near the fridge and nibbling a little something healthy as a result.

 

[Brunneria]

Thanks.

And I would agree with you that my hypo experiences while very low carbing are definitely different from the ones I had when my carbs were a bit higher, but they can still happen, and sometimes they are harder to spot which can make things even trickier in some ways.

Anyway, I have derailed your thread enough, so will wander off.

 

[CherryAA]

Thanks.

And I would agree with you that my hypo experiences while very low carbing are definitely different from the ones I had when my carbs were a bit higher, but they can still happen, and sometimes they are harder to spot which can make things even trickier in some ways.

Anyway, I have derailed your thread enough, so will wander off.

you are quite welcome I don't mind too much where debate takes me.....

 

[CherryAA]

May I ask if you have an " ideal" weight , bmi etc that you are aiming for?
As I get closer to the ideal weight for my height I find that I am becoming more hungry, when I have not been bothered by hunger at all since about 3 days into my new woe.
Curious to know how others have experienced the return of hunger?
Its not an abnormal hunger, I am just sometimes hungry!

I am thinking a BMI of around 27 might be optimal .iw 75 kg o 10 to go . I am conscious that all cause mortality rates are lower in the 25-30 range than the under 25 (corrected for typo) range, and that for women remaining " robust " in old age might be a good thing. I m getting a bit doddery (59

 

[Kristin251]

Possibly. Hadn’t been diagnosed this time last year and only started testing in February this year, so I don’t have any prior patterns to compare against, but I did run higher when on holiday in hot climates this summer, so maybe the cooler weather has caused levels to drop.

I'm dropping a tad lower with the cooler weather. Not hungrier though. My insulin needs are slightly less too compared to this past summer. Now we may have to deal with the time change. But for me it will help the DP

 

[BrianTheElder]

I am thinking a BMI of around 27 might be optimal .iw 75 kg o 10 to go . I am conscious that all cause mortality rates are lower in the 25-30 range than the under 30 range, and that for women remaining " robust " in old age might be a good thing. I m getting a bit doddery (59

Sorry, I didn't understand "all cause mortality rates are lower in the 25-30 range than the under 30 range", aren't they the same range? I would like to know since my BMI is just over 25. Do you have any numbers for the below 25 (normal) range?

 

[CherryAA]

Sorry, I didn't understand "all cause mortality rates are lower in the 25-30 range than the under 30 range", aren't they the same range? I would like to know since my BMI is just over 25. Do you have any numbers for the below 25 (normal) range?

Sorry should be under 25 . I've corrected it . I think I put the relevant research in my blog thread and maybe even on a separate forum thread, but for ease of reference here is that post again and added in a couple of other things. THIS is an area I really did research !

"I started this process a year ago with a BMI of 41% (category II obesity) , as of today I am at 31% (category I obesity) - and my weight loss has stalled . I'm 5 dress sizes down - now being a UK size 16 (not seen since my early teens ) .

All of my markers are now excellent though still with highish blood pressure controlled by meds, though frankly even without meds, it generally stays below 140/90. I've been on a weight plateau for 6 months now, and no matter what I do to rethink it, I keep failing to make that next leap. ( this was what led me to try this "LOW INSULIN DIET" - which was my attempt to reconcile what might be going wrong to create the stall ) )

In my head I keep retaining the holy grail of say 22.5% BMI being bang slap in the middle range of "normal" that would require weight of 64.5 kg another 25kg from where I am today - i.e. I am only half way through my weight loss journey and that next half seems impossibly far away especially after a six month stall.

Yesterday I came across this paper

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3953803/
and particularly this table

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3953803/table/tbl2/ (which got me to why I wanted to be about 27 BMI)

Basically this paper appears to show that when adjusted for age and smoking ,the all cause risk of mortality is actually significantly lower with a BMI % 25- 30% compared to the normal BMI range and it is STILL lower up to a BMI of 35%.
it is only when you have got beyond 35% that all cause mortality goes up.

The paper then goes on to suggest that cardiovascular risk as a subset is higher if you are overweight compared to normal. However we now know that cardiovascular risk is intimately connected to high levels of blood glucose, circulating insulin and high triglycerides. I know that all of these are now low in my case.

I currently feel " robust" i.e. not prey to anything much from depression to brittle bones, I just had my carotid arteries checked and they are free from any sign of disease. I did the OGTT and it returned to normal within 2 hours, my fasting insulin is only 8 well below average) my hba1C none diabetic ( just) and my adipose fat levels of 11 are also within the normal range (up to 13)

Overall therefore it would appear that if I continue to follow and LCHF diet, and keep my weight stable where it is, then I now ALREADY pretty much fall into the healthiest possible category . As such my goal should not be to try to aim for that impossible target of 64.5 kg anymore. In fact such a goal may actually be positively detrimental to my health.

Instead I should rejoice in the fact that I am now a robust, curvaceous , healthy woman in the prime of her life who follows a great diet that may well keep me fit and active for the forseeable future. Whilst I would quite like to be a size 14 , in truth I have no real reason to try to be much less than I am. Instead I should just focus on keeping active, enjoying life, sticking to LCHF principles and only if that results in weight gain take actual steps to take it down further. If I can manage a few days VLC or fasting and gradually get rid of the extra 10kg , then great- but it actually doesn't matter much.

To be totally honest, I am having a lot of trouble processing the above. On the one hand my mind says - well NOW you know why the stall - basically your body is happy at this weight - its a healthy weight for you. On the other it keeps saying .... but, but..... but ...... I am currently having trouble finding the specific buts.

Overall I have therefore decided to adjust my ideal goal target . I am trying to get used to the idea that I no longer actually want to be 64 kg. instead my goal should be 78kg only 10kg less than I am. That 10kg if I can do it would probably also get me more comfortably in the non diabetic hba1C range.

I am also trying to get used to the idea that my real reason for that next 10 kilos may actually be largely vanity not health....... This is SO WEIRD ( but rather nice) !"

On top of that I reference the weight adjusted BMI target range
http://www.smartbmicalculator.com

This increases "goal " BMI based non age and so that my new target which will be BMI of approx 27 is well within the green zone.

I have looked at the underlying reasons why smart BMI calculator makes sense

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...y_A_review/links/53e217f20cf2235f352c0ba2.pdf

and also looked at the health benefits/ detriments of actual weight loss.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26571354
https://acpjc.acponline.org/Content/120/3/issue/ACPJC-1994-120-3-082.htm

These shows that both weight change and weight cycling has higher mortality for older people


Taking all these together - I want my insulin to be as low as possible to maximise my chances of not contracting anything, I am no longer too fussed about getting to be slim, I consider my target weight to be somewhere in the weight adjusted green zone, which will be somewhere above 25 BMI where I consider I look my most fabulous. I want that weight to be one its not hard to keep constant.

 

[CherryAA]

Day 8 of the Low Insulin Diet (starting weight 91.6kg, current ??kg )

No scales at the moment , so I don't know what my actual weight is doing, but ketones of 2.8 last night and 1.9 this morning , so I am assuming the process continues. I am alos consciously drinking much more water than usual, just to be sure this is not all water effect.

Average blood glucose yesterday 4.8 -including a 4.1 overnight fasting, 7.0 morning liver dump and 4.6 post meal high aver the liver dump!

This morning I still record overnight lows in the 3.6-3.9 range , but the liver reaction today has topped out at 5.1 suggesting that the swings yesterday were more a function of the new libre than me.

I am going to switch things up today, and devise a highly calorific, highly fatty meal with mainly fish base and try that out for a bit.
Woman cannot live on beef lasagne alone ! - though it wouldn't be a huge hardship its delicious !

 

[BrianTheElder]

Sorry should be under 25 . I've corrected it . I think I put the relevant research in my blog thread and maybe even on a separate forum thread, but for ease of reference here is that post again and added in a couple of other things. THIS is an area I really did research !

"I started this process a year ago with a BMI of 41% (category II obesity) , as of today I am at 31% (category I obesity) - and my weight loss has stalled . I'm 5 dress sizes down - now being a UK size 16 (not seen since my early teens ) .

All of my markers are now excellent though still with highish blood pressure controlled by meds, though frankly even without meds, it generally stays below 140/90. I've been on a weight plateau for 6 months now, and no matter what I do to rethink it, I keep failing to make that next leap. ( this was what led me to try this "LOW INSULIN DIET" - which was my attempt to reconcile what might be going wrong to create the stall ) )

In my head I keep retaining the holy grail of say 22.5% BMI being bang slap in the middle range of "normal" that would require weight of 64.5 kg another 25kg from where I am today - i.e. I am only half way through my weight loss journey and that next half seems impossibly far away especially after a six month stall.

Yesterday I came across this paper

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3953803/
and particularly this table

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3953803/table/tbl2/ (which got me to why I wanted to be about 27 BMI)

Basically this paper appears to show that when adjusted for age and smoking ,the all cause risk of mortality is actually significantly lower with a BMI % 25- 30% compared to the normal BMI range and it is STILL lower up to a BMI of 35%.
it is only when you have got beyond 35% that all cause mortality goes up.

The paper then goes on to suggest that cardiovascular risk as a subset is higher if you are overweight compared to normal. However we now know that cardiovascular risk is intimately connected to high levels of blood glucose, circulating insulin and high triglycerides. I know that all of these are now low in my case.

I currently feel " robust" i.e. not prey to anything much from depression to brittle bones, I just had my carotid arteries checked and they are free from any sign of disease. I did the OGTT and it returned to normal within 2 hours, my fasting insulin is only 8 well below average) my hba1C none diabetic ( just) and my adipose fat levels of 11 are also within the normal range (up to 13)

Overall therefore it would appear that if I continue to follow and LCHF diet, and keep my weight stable where it is, then I now ALREADY pretty much fall into the healthiest possible category . As such my goal should not be to try to aim for that impossible target of 64.5 kg anymore. In fact such a goal may actually be positively detrimental to my health.

Instead I should rejoice in the fact that I am now a robust, curvaceous , healthy woman in the prime of her life who follows a great diet that may well keep me fit and active for the forseeable future. Whilst I would quite like to be a size 14 , in truth I have no real reason to try to be much less than I am. Instead I should just focus on keeping active, enjoying life, sticking to LCHF principles and only if that results in weight gain take actual steps to take it down further. If I can manage a few days VLC or fasting and gradually get rid of the extra 10kg , then great- but it actually doesn't matter much.

To be totally honest, I am having a lot of trouble processing the above. On the one hand my mind says - well NOW you know why the stall - basically your body is happy at this weight - its a healthy weight for you. On the other it keeps saying .... but, but..... but ...... I am currently having trouble finding the specific buts.

Overall I have therefore decided to adjust my ideal goal target . I am trying to get used to the idea that I no longer actually want to be 64 kg. instead my goal should be 78kg only 10kg less than I am. That 10kg if I can do it would probably also get me more comfortably in the non diabetic hba1C range.

I am also trying to get used to the idea that my real reason for that next 10 kilos may actually be largely vanity not health....... This is SO WEIRD ( but rather nice) !"

On top of that I reference the weight adjusted BMI target range
http://www.smartbmicalculator.com

This increases "goal " BMI based non age and so that my new target which will be BMI of approx 27 is well within the green zone.

I have looked at the underlying reasons why smart BMI calculator makes sense

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...y_A_review/links/53e217f20cf2235f352c0ba2.pdf

and also looked at the health benefits/ detriments of actual weight loss.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26571354
https://acpjc.acponline.org/Content/120/3/issue/ACPJC-1994-120-3-082.htm

These shows that both weight change and weight cycling has higher mortality for older people


Taking all these together - I want my insulin to be as low as possible to maximise my chances of not contracting anything, I am no longer too fussed about getting to be slim, I consider my target weight to be somewhere in the weight adjusted green zone, which will be somewhere above 25 BMI where I consider I look my most fabulous. I want that weight to be one its not hard to keep constant.

Thanks, that's reassuring.
I do feel comfortable at my current BMI, but I would like to lose a little as, for the first time in decades, it actually felt good to be light. So I am aiming for what I think is my ideal weight of 72 kg which would produce a BMI of 24. I think that is about right for my build. BMI is such a strange measure anyway.
With all my numbers in order, it's good that's all I have to worry about at the mo.

 

[CherryAA]

Yeah I. Sure that will be lovely. I have friend who adjusted his expectations lower having got to his first goal. And maybe I will too . It all seemed so far from likely that is not been a worry so far . Good luck in achieving your goal.

 

[Bluetit1802]

BMI is very misleading and relies on one size fits all weight distribution. An old colleague of mine had extremely thin legs, so her BMI wasn't really representative. She was a lot fatter in the trunk than I was, but weighed a lot less. Then there are the muscle bound folk who weigh heavy but have little fat.

I weigh 9 stones, my BMI is 21.6. As soon as I gain a couple of pounds it all goes on my trunk - and that is where I don't want it to be. I will be doing all I can to keep to 9 stones, which is what I was as a teenager, what I was when I married, and my 41 year old wedding dress still fits perfectly. I'm happy.

The waist to height ratio seems a lot more appropriate for gauging health and is now being used by doctors more frequently.

 

[CherryAA]

BMI is very misleading and relies on one size fits all weight distribution. An old colleague of mine had extremely thin legs, so her BMI wasn't really representative. She was a lot fatter in the trunk than I was, but weighed a lot less. Then there are the muscle bound folk who weigh heavy but have little fat.

I weigh 9 stones, my BMI is 21.6. As soon as I gain a couple of pounds it all goes on my trunk - and that is where I don't want it to be. I will be doing all I can to keep to 9 stones, which is what I was as a teenager, what I was when I married, and my 41 year old wedding dress still fits perfectly. I'm happy.

The waist to height ratio seems a lot more appropriate for gauging health and is now being used by doctors more frequently.

Yes, I agree entirely in the end I suspect its whatever weight one feels comfortable with the smallest waist size that goes with a nice nourishing diet and having fun eating !

I know my waist is still far too big and I won't believe 27 BMI is good enough unless it also delivers a waist within the recommended range by then. In the meantime the research that shows that optimal health can be achieved at a higher than 25 recommended BMI is still reassuring if one happens to be in that range. it is also good t see that its not actually nevessary to return to a weight one should have been as 25 year old to get optimum health.

I suspect that there are very healthy peopls right from a BMI of 19 up to probably 35 and even beyond. They probably all share similar characteristics, low fasting insulin ( as per the study I sited ) low trigs , high HDL cholesterol and great lipid profiles for anything else with no signs of inflammation.

I'm sure the actual healthy human body can come in any range of shapes and sizes . The trick is in trying to understand what is the right size and shape for you personally. When one has been buried under 115 kg of podge for many years I've no idea what that looks like yet ! - or indeed if I will ever find out

 

[CherryAA]

Day 8 of the Low Insulin Diet (starting weight 91.6kg, current 84.6kg )
new scales obtained - another 0.8 kg off - today so that's 2.1 kg down from three highly calorific 1600 calorie beef lasagnes . That's definitely staying on my menu. In fact I'm a bit loath to stop ! but in the interests of finding out if I am going to sentenced to beef lasagne forever. I am going to try a new 3 day stint 1600 calories fish and fat based - (unless my ketones come down! - in which case it will be the remainder of the 50 eur in the bin.!

My menu includes

starter - king prawns will shells fried in butter and garlic until the shells are crispy and edible too with fresh lemon
min course - salmon fillet tomatoes and mushrooms cooked in butter on a bed of spinach, onion with fresh lemon
side of cabbage,kale, coriander, spinach chilli, ginger cook in butter with cream added
desert, strawberries , kiwi fruit, black currants with yoghurt and cream

1600 calories in total . I would have preferred to eat about 75% of the above , but I wanted to stick to the same 1600 calories this time. The result is that with fish one ends up with more protein
so 98% of all nutrients, 130 Protein, 50 Carbs and 93 fat , Om 3 6.8, om 6 4.2 sat fat 48 g.

According to Ted Naimann, one can eat upto 800 calories per day more o proteins and not put on weight -if you are insulin sensitive. He posted that on twitter though I can't find the underlying research he seems a fairly reliable guy.

I now need to lie down !

Will be fascinated to see if that stops the ketosis dead - still giving off " do not drive" signals on the breathalyser an hour later and no reaction to blood glucose at all yet - so looking promising.

 

[CherryAA]

2 hours after the fish megameal ketones still 1.4, breathalyser siren still going

Premeal fasting 5.1, high point 5.9 at 2 hrs 4.9 mmol after 50g carbs + 130 g protein with 93g fat.
so it seems like meals of this type give similar results -still think I over-faced myself though so might cut quanties of the same meal tomorrow. I could have eaten abut 1250 calories and still made the same 98% nutrients .

ketonix 15.3 before bed

 

[marathonmona]

This is so interesting and clearly working well for you.
Do you ever get really tempted in the day to have ‘just a little something’ or are you genuinely not hungry?

 

[TIANDB]

Whoopee Cherry under 85kg. Thanks for posting up your stats it is most interesting. As an aside at what point do you weigh yourself in the morning I presume ? Great work.. Take care..

 

[CherryAA]

This is so interesting and clearly working well for you.
Do you ever get really tempted in the day to have ‘just a little something’ or are you genuinely not hungry?

I am definitely hungry - but for some reason the sheer power of having decided - nope I can eat a really nice - meal later just not now - seems to be working . I have kept this up for 10 days now with not a single stray ( though see my next post ) and somehow it just becomes more and more ingrained that NO I will not eat until my meal. I have stopped myself with fingers to lips on a hundred occasions, just that tiny bite, that little bit of cheese left on the counter etc etc.

I posted elsewhere about a non diabetic friend of mine getting an enormous spike bigger than her OGTT tolerance test from eating just a 5 gram piece of candied ginger. That image sits with me when I think about any " tiny" amounts of anything.

 

[CherryAA]

Whoopee Cherry under 85kg. Thanks for posting up your stats it is most interesting. As an aside at what point do you weigh yourself in the morning I presume ? Great work.. Take care..

I weigh myself first thing in the morning but I screwed the system up yesterday by not having the scales so the 84.6kg was recorded about 4 pm before the big meal. I think I gave myself the benefit of nearly two days as a result . This morning I'm not showing any weight loss today so now I don't know if that's the timing of the weighing or the amount of protein eaten -or ... a tiny bit of carrot . see my latest days post !

 

[CherryAA]

Day 9 of the Low Insulin Diet (starting weight 91.6kg, current 85.0kg )

So yesterday I ate tons of fish protein within a meal of 1600 calories. That brought the fat content down. Over the previous three days I had recorded 0.6-0.8 kg weight loss every day through my magic lasagne.

Today I weight 85 kg again - but I am not comparing like with like given that the measurement yesterday was at 4.pm ie after another half days fasting.

My goal in eating the extra protein was to try to see if I could do that and still record weight loss or not . The difference in timing means at present I don't know.

The other thing that happened with my magic lasagne was that my blood sugars over night were coming down into the 3-6 to 3.9 range and I wondered if this lack of glucose was then triggering an increased liver dump. My thinking was that with a diet higher in protein then maybe the long acting effect of the protein would leave my overnight fasting numbers a little higher and thus lead to lower liver dump in the morning. So far so good .

After my magic lasagne - my post meal high was essentially nothing ( 4.4 => to 4.6)
with my high protein fish meal which also contained more carbs (50g) I got a bigger reaction (5.1=> 5.8) and I went to bed on 4.7 mmol compared to 3.7 the day before - which overall seemed like a good thing.

If I had left it there the experiment would have told me something.
but ( @ickihun will smile at this ) could I leave well alone - NOPE .

This morning I awoke at about 3.00 am with a down error flashing at 4.1 on my libre - something its done dozens of times before to no ill effect at all - so instead of leaving things be - and thus leaving my experiment intact. I went to the fridge and I ate about 10g of raw carrot thinking that might keep my blood sugars stable. It didn't instead they shot up to 5.8, remained elevated all morning, gave me a liver dump of 6.6 mmol higher than its been since I started!

Now of course I have no idea if the reason for that is the quantity of protein in the meal, or the tiny bit of carrot. I think its probably the latter.

This reinforces overall my belief that the human body does not actually respond that much to quantity, it responds to type - so it is the act of eating at the wrong time, coupled with fairly small quantities of the wrong stuff that creates the problem .
For me that would reinforce the idea that eating more carbohydrates via shakes whilst restricting the total quantum of calories may well be a less effective way of losing weight and reversing diabetes than eating more of the right calories ( real foods) but leaving long gaps in between which should in turn reduce fasting insulin faster and thus increase insulin sensitivity.

In terms of today's strategy - there is no doubt in my mind that I ate too much protein yesterday , I just felt way too full all evening and right into the night, despite my low blood glucose and still high ketones. ( the police would still jail me in a car!)

So for today's meal I am going to ditch the salmon thus bringing total proteins down to about the same as the magic lasagne, then cook some more vegetables in butter and cream to create a vegetarian ( ish ) main course, with the same fruit desert as before - that replicates similar levels of carbs and proteins as the magic lasagne, but it slightly less calorific overall . I only need 1300 calories to get to 99% of nutrients. That will also be 65% fat- ie classic LCHF.
I keep being caught out by trying to make foods not quite fatty enough ! when will I learn !
note to self, eat butter, don't have "snacks " of any type and stop meddling