My personal hypothesis - T2 - Low insulin Diet

[Goonergal]

Day 7 of the Low Insulin Diet (starting weight 91.6kg, current 85.7kg )

Yesterday I repeated the 1600 calories lasagne megameal with exactly the same results except that all the glucose numbers were 0.2 lower and the average was 4.6 mmol, my ketones increased slightly to 2.6 during the day and have now increased to 1.8 mmol in the morning as well.

My overnight average glucose was 4.1 mmol down from 5.3 mmol at the beginning and the liver dump now took me to 5.8 at the maximum point. the mega meal high including 40 carbs and 70 g protein barely registered giving me a high of 4.8 mmol
Before starting this diet I had hit on trying to keep combs and protein at around 100 a being " optimum " for me being 25g carbs and 75g protein preferably.

I have lost another 0.4 kg - that makes a loss of 5.9 kg since I began. Its becoming ever easier to accept I am just going to eat one nourishing fatty meal once per day and clearly at 1600 calories that's a great meal , so both nice food and no hunger pangs- though I'm assuming at some point it will stall at that level of calorific intake.

The one meal a day with carbs under about 45g, seems to be gradually driving down by blood glucose, increasing ketones and keeping fat burning strong despite quite high calories .I expect with that my levels of circulating insulin is going down too.

I'm guessing at some point both will bottom out , or I will start to feel ill. It will be interesting to see if once I reach bottom - whatever that is - and looking at non diabetic freinds I'm guessing that could be as low as maybe 3.6 , is that the point when my system finally stops producing the morning liver dumps? , or does diabetes mean the the disregulation simply causes the overnight average to go down into dangerous territory and the morning liver dump to continue. Fingers crossed it's the former

Today I am going to do the same thing again - seems a pity to stop a good thing deliberately ! especially when the lasagne is lovely !

@CherryAA this is such an interesting thread and your results are amazing.

 

[CherryAA]

Day 7 of the Low Insulin Diet (starting weight 91.6kg, current 85.4kg )


Hmm . actually the previous post is incorrect. Measured at the same stage (post ablutions) I am actual 85.4 kg a loss of 0.7 kg compared to 0.6 for the same mega - meal yesterday. So 1.3kg in total using one meal 1600 calories per day.

I think I may also have answered my question about optimums. Yesterday my overnight average was 4,3, morning liver dump 5.8, post prandial high 4.8 and average 4.6 .

This morning I woke to overnight average of 4.1 with quite long stretches in the 3.6-3.9 range - My morning liver dump INCREASED substantially to 6.8 . in turn this will mean my full day is going to be a bit higher.

Presumably that is telling me that even with 40g carbs with this meal I don't have quite enough glucose in my system thus stimulating the liver dump. I was thinking that that would happen, but was expecting it to be sometime in the future not right now !

In future if the same cycle happens instead of being reasonably relaxed to see the post meal 3.6-3.9 if I get to that stage,, I will then deliberately eat some high fibre carbs - celery and carrot in the evening to try to get my bed time number into the 4.2 range instead of under 4.0 mmol.

I am not completely sure that this diet is actually reducing my visceral fat as opposed to my adipose fat , the visceral fat score on the tanita scales hasn't budged ( but then they seem totally erratic anyway - so may not be relevant) .

I am going to do one more day of this particular meal, then switch it up for another three days, perhaps focusing on fish instead of meat, and see what happens next. The one meal a day thing feels permanent .

 

[CherryAA]

@CherryAA this is such an interesting thread and your results are amazing.

Thank you - it helps to record my thoughts somewhere, so figured I might as well share them. In the end we are all on a journey of discovery !

 

[DCUKMod]

@CherryAA - In terms of your scales and the visceral fat scoring; I don't know what your score is or where you are in the ranges (and I'm absolutely not asking), but as soon as I started weighing myself (about 4 months post-diagnosis), I tracked my visceral fat (VF). I don't have Tanita scales, but went for the Omron BF511s due to their inclusion of hand grasps. which are supposed to increase the numbers of impedance measuring points, but again that's just personal choice.

Anyway, in terms of the VF changes, they appear to have been slow moving, in my case. To be fair, I have absolutely no idea what my VF score (or weight) was at diagnosis, and by the time I bought the scales had already gone from an HbA1c of 73 to 37, and had trimmed up enough that my clothes didn't fit any more, so I'm never going to be an "early-doors" comparison for anyone, but I don't recall ever seeing a VF score of more than 4, and certainly it has now sat at 3 for at least a couple of years. For me it hasn't wavered on a day to day basis.

Once I started looking at my weight, my losses (not a particular objective for me) were fairly linear, with the odd, brief, plateau, but throughout my early journey my blood score ranges weren't linear, they notched down. I'd achieve an average of x-y, then run within that range of x-y for a few weeks, then suddenly just shift down a notch to run from y-z, and so on.

For what it's worth, my view is that our bodies like routines, and when we run to a routine, our bodies tend to support us pretty well. It's like it realises what it's up against, and tries to keep us safe.

If we think about some of the newly diagnosed people we have join us who are frustrated that they change their diets, sometimes quite materially, and yet nothing equally dramatic happens to their bloods or weight, for a while. In my mind that is just their body trying hard to retain them in a steady "comfort zone". The oft discussed carb flu is similar. Those experiencing it are likely to have taken their body out of their former comfort zone and it's frankly protesting. Obviously pressing on can often lead to the creation of a new comfort zone, and so on.

As I've said before there are so many ways to approach corralling diabetes into a good place. You are obviously making a heavy investment in yourself, but I'm sure it's extremes aren't for everyone.

 

[CherryAA]

@CherryAA - In terms of your scales and the visceral fat scoring; I don't know what your score is or where you are in the ranges (and I'm absolutely not asking), but as soon as I started weighing myself (about 4 months post-diagnosis), I tracked my visceral fat (VF). I don't have Tanita scales, but went for the Omron BF511s due to their inclusion of hand grasps. which are supposed to increase the numbers of impedance measuring points, but again that's just personal choice.

Anyway, in terms of the VF changes, they appear to have been slow moving, in my case. To be fair, I have absolutely no idea what my VF score (or weight) was at diagnosis, and by the time I bought the scales had already gone from an HbA1c of 73 to 37, and had trimmed up enough that my clothes didn't fit any more, so I'm never going to be an "early-doors" comparison for anyone, but I don't recall ever seeing a VF score of more than 4, and certainly it has now sat at 3 for at least a couple of years. For me it hasn't wavered on a day to day basis.

Once I started looking at my weight, my losses (not a particular objective for me) were fairly linear, with the odd, brief, plateau, but throughout my early journey my blood score ranges weren't linear, they notched down. I'd achieve an average of x-y, then run within that range of x-y for a few weeks, then suddenly just shift down a notch to run from y-z, and so on.

For what it's worth, my view is that our bodies like routines, and when we run to a routine, our bodies tend to support us pretty well. It's like it realises what it's up against, and tries to keep us safe.

If we think about some of the newly diagnosed people we have join us who are frustrated that they change their diets, sometimes quite materially, and yet nothing equally dramatic happens to their bloods or weight, for a while. In my mind that is just their body trying hard to retain them in a steady "comfort zone". The oft discussed carb flu is similar. Those experiencing it are likely to have taken their body out of their former comfort zone and it's frankly protesting. Obviously pressing on can often lead to the creation of a new comfort zone, and so on.

As I've said before there are so many ways to approach corralling diabetes into a good place. You are obviously making a heavy investment in yourself, but I'm sure it's extremes aren't for everyone.

Would you mind disclosing what your BMI is? I'm still obese 31, and my score on the Tanita scale is 11 - which is coming down but very, very slowly - the first time I measured it was 13.5 but a long time after I'd begun. My feeling is that I'm not likely to get close to 4 which is probably about ideal unless I can also lose the additional weight .

Currently my actual blood glucose levels are pretty much sorted, so unless I see an increasing trend of daily average glucose, which I can't explain, then I am going to stick with this for as long as I can until I hit the next stall. I have been worrying for months about how to get away from my stall of 89kg. The fact that I did it so decisively in one week flat by following the principles I figured should work, based on the theory about insulin overall is to my mind a bit miraculous and for that matter " far fetched" lol !

 

[CherryAA]

http://blog.virtahealth.com/reversing-type-2-diabetes-with-nutritional-ketosis/

If it is actually nutritional ketosis that reverses diabetes through calorie restriction via VLC than so will my Low Insulin diet. My nutritonal ketosis is now through the roof, at 2.8 max yesterday, right at the top of the 1.5-3.0 range.

 

[DCUKMod]

Would you mind disclosing what your BMI is? I'm still obese 31, and my score on the Tanita scale is 11 - which is coming down but very, very slowly - the first time I measured it was 13.5 but a long time after I'd begun. My feeling is that I'm not likely to get close to 4 which is probably about ideal unless I can also lose the additional weight .

Currently my actual blood glucose levels are pretty much sorted, so unless I see an increasing trend of daily average glucose, which I can't explain, then I am going to stick with this for as long as I can until I hit the next stall. I have been worrying for months about how to get away from my stall of 89kg. The fact that I did it so decisively in one week flat by following the principles I figured should work, based on the theory about insulin overall is to my mind a bit miraculous and for that matter " far fetched" lol !

I'm a skinny old girl, with my BMI skirting in the 18.5-19 range, taking daily fluctuations into account. My only weight goal these days is not to dip down out of the BMI range. I appreciate that's a fairly blunt metric, but it's certainly a very easy one to self-apply.

I still step-on/step-off the scales every morning, but more to ensure I din't see any unwanted downward trends. I'm certainly not starving myself and my calorie intake varies between c2000-2500 a day. My carb intake is variable, but I am a low carber. I have never got overly excited about ketosis, although I dabbled for a very brief period with urine ketostix, which told me virtually nothing, as they showed pretty much nothing. I understand that isn't too uncommon for those living a longer term LC lifestyle.

In all the actions I have taken along the way, my primary objective has always been to moderate and manage my blood glucose number, and the rest happened along the way. I have absolutely no vision that my way or anyone else's way is the one true way.

Every one of us makes our own choices, and for me the loudest message for folks is to eat to their meter, and be open minded to changes along the way.

My diabetes is in a good place right now. I'll do my best to keep it there, whilst living the active lifestyle I want to. If in the future things change for me, I'll have to reconsider my approach and go from there.

Eating to my meter has been the absolute key for me, and I feel that, for me, that has been my greatest game-changer, rather than any specific advice to eat this, or give up that. The feedback from my meter guided me pretty well in terms of what I should or shouldn't be doing.

Of course, this forum was a massive support and mine of information, and I always felt confident there's be someone who had experienced similar things to me, or could point me in the direction of things I could substitute for my offending rocket fuel foods. That was invaluable in boosting my confidence and moving me forward.

I have a huge amount to thank this forum for.

 

[CherryAA]

I'm a skinny old girl, with my BMI skirting in the 18.5-19 range, taking daily fluctuations into account. My only weight goal these days is not to dip down out of the BMI range. I appreciate that's a fairly blunt metric, but it's certainly a very easy one to self-apply.

I still step-on/step-off the scales every morning, but more to ensure I din't see any unwanted downward trends. I'm certainly not starving myself and my calorie intake varies between c2000-2500 a day. My carb intake is variable, but I am a low carber. I have never got overly excited about ketosis, although I dabbled for a very brief period with urine ketostix, which told me virtually nothing, as they showed pretty much nothing. I understand that isn't too uncommon for those living a longer term LC lifestyle.

In all the actions I have taken along the way, my primary objective has always been to moderate and manage my blood glucose number, and the rest happened along the way. I have absolutely no vision that my way or anyone else's way is the one true way.

Every one of us makes our own choices, and for me the loudest message for folks is to eat to their meter, and be open minded to changes along the way.

My diabetes is in a good place right now. I'll do my best to keep it there, whilst living the active lifestyle I want to. If in the future things change for me, I'll have to reconsider my approach and go from there.

Eating to my meter has been the absolute key for me, and I feel that, for me, that has been my greatest game-changer, rather than any specific advice to eat this, or give up that. The feedback from my meter guided me pretty well in terms of what I should or shouldn't be doing.

Of course, this forum was a massive support and mine of information, and I always felt confident there's be someone who had experienced similar things to me, or could point me in the direction of things I could substitute for my offending rocket fuel foods. That was invaluable in boosting my confidence and moving me forward.

I have a huge amount to thank this forum for.

I agree entirely , it's a marvelous forum , Also that urine ketostix tell you nothing once an LC lifestyle is established .Knowing what your blood sugars are and responding to that is totally critical I agree.
I guess I've been quite surprised to find just how helpful getting the timing of food right as well seems to be - hats off to Dr Jason Fung !

 

[CherryAA]

@CherryAA - In terms of your scales and the visceral fat scoring; I don't know what your score is or where you are in the ranges (and I'm absolutely not asking), but as soon as I started weighing myself (about 4 months post-diagnosis), I tracked my visceral fat (VF). I don't have Tanita scales, but went for the Omron BF511s due to their inclusion of hand grasps. which are supposed to increase the numbers of impedance measuring points, but again that's just personal choice.

Anyway, in terms of the VF changes, they appear to have been slow moving, in my case. To be fair, I have absolutely no idea what my VF score (or weight) was at diagnosis, and by the time I bought the scales had already gone from an HbA1c of 73 to 37, and had trimmed up enough that my clothes didn't fit any more, so I'm never going to be an "early-doors" comparison for anyone, but I don't recall ever seeing a VF score of more than 4, and certainly it has now sat at 3 for at least a couple of years. For me it hasn't wavered on a day to day basis.

Once I started looking at my weight, my losses (not a particular objective for me) were fairly linear, with the odd, brief, plateau, but throughout my early journey my blood score ranges weren't linear, they notched down. I'd achieve an average of x-y, then run within that range of x-y for a few weeks, then suddenly just shift down a notch to run from y-z, and so on.

For what it's worth, my view is that our bodies like routines, and when we run to a routine, our bodies tend to support us pretty well. It's like it realises what it's up against, and tries to keep us safe.

If we think about some of the newly diagnosed people we have join us who are frustrated that they change their diets, sometimes quite materially, and yet nothing equally dramatic happens to their bloods or weight, for a while. In my mind that is just their body trying hard to retain them in a steady "comfort zone". The oft discussed carb flu is similar. Those experiencing it are likely to have taken their body out of their former comfort zone and it's frankly protesting. Obviously pressing on can often lead to the creation of a new comfort zone, and so on.

As I've said before there are so many ways to approach corralling diabetes into a good place. You are obviously making a heavy investment in yourself, but I'm sure it's extremes aren't for everyone.

I agree that is it very frustrating, however it is also the case that our newly diagnosed T2 people,in general terms will be most likely to have very high levels of insulin in their bodies , if they are anything like the Kraft Curves and have not yet experienced total pancreatic failure.

I don't buy into the theory of a " comfort zone" per se . My theory is that as insulin is the fat making hormone then as one generates more and more insulin the closer to diagnosis, maybe that is what actually creates the "comfort zone"and as you gradually lose some of those levels of insulin then so you may become more receptive to losing weight. That is what happened to me. Professor Noakes investigative team was expecting very high initial insulin levels to fall very sharply on adopting the LCHF diet right down to normal just like glucose. I agree with them that that is probably true to an extent and that that may well influence why some people experience dramatic weight loss in the early stages . It may also help to explain why people hit a stall. They were themselves suprised that these levels appeared to be time correlated over as much as two - three years based on their study data

It was the SECOND six months that got me from 20 to 8 , I have no clue where I started.

In terms of " extremes" I am struggling a little to understand quite why you believe what I am doing is particularly extreme.
In essence I am training myself to stop snacking and to recognise real hunger.
It is almost certainly more extreme to eat 3 powdered shakes per day with a total calorie content of 800 calories, than it is to eat one real food meal of 1600 calories.

My theory is that eating one healthy, nutricious meal per day comprising most of the daily recommended requirements for all nutrients may enable me to lose weight quickly. Currently that appears to be working. So I am intending to follow it for 8 weeks trying out different combinations of what those healthy nutricious meals might be, - meat, fish, dairy, non dairy, vegetarian, vegan and so on.

In my first three days I did calorie restricted a wide range of foods - which resulted in a lot more bulk than I would like and a lower percentage of fats and more proteins in the total diet

In my second three days I inadvertently found out that a higher calorie more nutrient high fat meal also did the job possibly more effectively and allowed more grams of carbs, thus widening the range of complementary vegetable ingredients to my foods.

I intend to then try out other types of food choices and see if for me it makes any difference what choice that is. in terms of ketones levels and therefore fat burning capacity I love all types of real foods, so it would be nice to see how I respond to these different types of foods.

If as a result of this 8 week period I discover that yes I can easily go for a meal out AND keep my weight stable as long as I really don't snack first, that for me will be a massive breakthrough.

 

[Kentoldlady1]

May I ask if you have an " ideal" weight , bmi etc that you are aiming for?
As I get closer to the ideal weight for my height I find that I am becoming more hungry, when I have not been bothered by hunger at all since about 3 days into my new woe.
Curious to know how others have experienced the return of hunger?
Its not an abnormal hunger, I am just sometimes hungry!

 

[Bluetit1802]

May I ask if you have an " ideal" weight , bmi etc that you are aiming for?
As I get closer to the ideal weight for my height I find that I am becoming more hungry, when I have not been bothered by hunger at all since about 3 days into my new woe.
Curious to know how others have experienced the return of hunger?
Its not an abnormal hunger, I am just sometimes hungry!

Strange you should say that. I have been on very low carb for 3 years at my ideal weight and never once felt hungry .... until a few weeks ago. My diet hasn't changed and nor has my weight, but my blood sugars have notched downwards suddenly and quite noticeably. The hunger seems to be a sign (in me) that my body thinks my glucose levels are too low approaching a meal time. They aren't, but they are in the 4s instead of the normal 5s. I feel hungry right now. My evening meal is due in about an hour.

 

[Goonergal]

Strange you should say that. I have been on very low carb for 3 years at my ideal weight and never once felt hungry .... until a few weeks ago. My diet hasn't changed and nor has my weight, but my blood sugars have notched downwards suddenly and quite noticeably. The hunger seems to be a sign (in me) that my body thinks my glucose levels are too low approaching a meal time. They aren't, but they are in the 4s instead of the normal 5s. I feel hungry right now. My evening meal is due in about an hour.

Me too! Blood sugars quite dramatically down - have seen a number of 3s pre meal and barely into the fives at all. Also feeling hungry - needed to eat breakfast for the first time in months today.

 

[Kristin251]

Me too! Blood sugars quite dramatically down - have seen a number of 3s pre meal and barely into the fives at all. Also feeling hungry - needed to eat breakfast for the first time in months today.

Season change??

 

[CherryAA]

Day 7 of the Low Insulin Diet (starting weight 91.6kg, current 85.4kg )


Hmm . actually the previous post is incorrect. Measured at the same stage (post ablutions) I am actual 85.4 kg a loss of 0.7 kg compared to 0.6 for the same mega - meal yesterday. So 1.3kg in total using one meal 1600 calories per day.

I think I may also have answered my question about optimums. Yesterday my overnight average was 4,3, morning liver dump 5.8, post prandial high 4.8 and average 4.6 .

This morning I woke to overnight average of 4.1 with quite long stretches in the 3.6-3.9 range - My morning liver dump INCREASED substantially to 6.8 . in turn this will mean my full day is going to be a bit higher.

Presumably that is telling me that even with 40g carbs with this meal I don't have quite enough glucose in my system thus stimulating the liver dump. I was thinking that that would happen, but was expecting it to be sometime in the future not right now !

In future if the same cycle happens instead of being reasonably relaxed to see the post meal 3.6-3.9 if I get to that stage,, I will then deliberately eat some high fibre carbs - celery and carrot in the evening to try to get my bed time number into the 4.2 range instead of under 4.0 mmol.

I am not completely sure that this diet is actually reducing my visceral fat as opposed to my adipose fat , the visceral fat score on the tanita scales hasn't budged ( but then they seem totally erratic anyway - so may not be relevant) .

I am going to do one more day of this particular meal, then switch it up for another three days, perhaps focusing on fish instead of meat, and see what happens next. The one meal a day thing feels permanent .

I think I may need to leave this another day before I try to come to the above conclusion about a late night snack. My freestyle packed up late last night, it will not connect to the charger , so the battery went flat. I need to send it back. In the meantime I installed another one. On reflection most of my new scanners have recorded crazily low numbers on day 1. So I think I probably need to wait it out for another couple of days, before deliberately trying to increase my blood sugars by adding a new snack in..

I'm currently back to 4.4 90 minutes and 2 hours after the 1600 calorie, 40g cabs 70% fat meal.

 

[Goonergal]

Season change??

Possibly. Hadn’t been diagnosed this time last year and only started testing in February this year, so I don’t have any prior patterns to compare against, but I did run higher when on holiday in hot climates this summer, so maybe the cooler weather has caused levels to drop.

 

[CherryAA]

@Goonergal @Bluetit1802 @Kentoldlady1

This is so very frustrating ! My theory would be that as all of you have gradually got back towards metabolic health, you may all have also moved closed to a " normal " range of insulin. So that now, your hunger pangs are real hunger pangs brought on because you actually need more nutrients, whereas before the hunger pangs were being created by having so much fat making hormone - insulin swishing about the place . Oh how I wish this was something tested not just a guess

In my own case my weight stalled close to where I hit the normal range - " 2-25" , I experienced lots of hunger pangs getting from 20- 8 between March and August and that correlated with when my weight stalled. I am only now finding a way to get back on the weight loss path. I have no idea if that is because I've had some blinding revelation how to do it, or that is simply the passage of time bringing me closer to optimal insulin ..... oh for the data to know why its not tested is beyond me .

 

[DCUKMod]

I think I may need to leave this another day before I try to come to the above conclusion about a late night snack. My freestyle packed up late last night, it will not connect to the charger , so the battery went flat. I need to send it back. In the meantime I installed another one. On reflection most of my new scanners have recorded crazily low numbers on day 1. So I think I probably need to wait it out for another couple of days, before deliberately trying to increase my blood sugars by adding a new snack in..

I'm currently back to 4.4 90 minutes and 2 hours after the 1600 calorie, 40g cabs 70% fat meal.

Do you apply then activate straight away? I leave my 24-48 hours before activating. The performance is much better if I do that. A few people have found that.

Were you to ask Abbott they would be OK with 24 hours, but they don't believe more helps. That was my experience anyway.

 

[CherryAA]

Do you apply then activate straight away? I leave my 24-48 hours before activating. The performance is much better if I do that. A few people have found that.

Were you to ask Abbott they would be OK with 24 hours, but they don't believe more helps. That was my experience anyway.

I usually apply and wait for 24 hours. This time because I was mid " experiment" I didn't want to leave a gap when the thing packed up unexpectedly. I forgot about that when looking at the liver dump today, hence wanting to leave it a bit now. .

 

[Brunneria]

Apologies @CherryAA
I have only just seen that you had responded to my earlier post.

My point for including the two references in my post was simple - you had referred to hypos in type 2 diabetics as being 'more in their minds than real'. Those links demonstrated that other people have hypos too. Having Type 2 diabetes is no protection from other hypo causes and people can simultaneously have Type 2 and Reactive Hypoglycaemia or other hypo causing medical conditions. I am sure that those of us who have experienced real hypos would not appreciate having the experiences dismissed as imaginary.

Perhaps in future you could distinguish between false hypos (to which I think you were referring), and actual hypos where blood glucose drops so low it affects us mentally and physically?

The only way to determine whether a hypo is real or false is to use a meter. My own hypo experiences went on for years with no medical professional taking me seriously and no method to prove they were hypos. Happily my meter and my Libre have provided me with this proof. As you can imagine, I find it disappointing to find people on this forum taking a similarly dismissive attitude.

 

[StewartH]

Wow, that is quite a large but delicious looking meal. How will you change your eating regime when you arrive at your target weight? I guess you will need up your calorie intake so will you add a meal to each day or shift to 7 courses perhaps . Really impressed with your determination and watching with interest..
Very best of luck.