NEWS: More weight loss operations for diabetes

Exercise is not the issue. Exercise is part of a healthy lifestyle, but it won't solve the obesity epidemic which is caused, I think, by high fructose levels in basic foods. All the commentators in the media seem to be looking at this through the wrong end of the telescope - because it suits them (1) and (2) they don't understand diabetes. One day, perhaps, the NHS will wake up to what is really going on.

I was never obese, but my BMI was c.26.

In my case it was bread and potatoes that spiked my BG. Eating low GI and lower carbs brought down my Hba1c and weight..

Exercise does help, because it may not cause you to lose much weight, but it can cause one's BG to plummet.

Why don't they tell them to eat low GI and cut down on bread/cakes/biscuits and spuds !!!

Good grief gastric bands!.....its ridiculous when education and a cheap meter and some strips could help 100,000's!!
Don't these surgeons have enough work already?
regards
Derek

Ps. When I was at school in the 40's and 50's one seldom saw a fat person and we knew about them mostly from Billy Bunter and his ilk! ) ;-))
So I don't think the claim 'obesity is genetic' holds true.

Oh by the way I am not trying to cause an argument, I am genuinely interested in the debate. I have modified my last statement to reflect this.

Plus, the obesity epidemic is not primarily related to diabetes, but is an aggravating factor for all diabetics, including T2s. The media should concentrate on the obesity increase in the general population and in children - and should investigate why this is happening, not blame diabetics for their diabetes! 'Scapegoat' seems an appropriate word here for the media's approach. I'll ignore them until they can get their act together.

@gfmoore, I know nothing about the Tokelau people and even less about this guy Taubes, obesity is just one cause for diabetes as genetics, hereditary, race and even some meds can bring on type 2 diabetes, also obesity isn't just caused by over-eating as anyone will know, so why you said what you said I've no idea. I know your quite new to the forum but we do have type 2's on the forum who were normal or underweight at diagnosis, so obesity isn't the sole cause by any means but it is a major factor.

As for the exercise, you only have to look at footballers and other sportsmen and women to see the benefits of regular exercise, you'll see very few who are overweight, take Steve Redgrave for example, when he was diagnosed with diabetes he went onto insulin even though he was type 2, he needed to as he was consuming something like 6000 calories a day at the height of his success.

We are much less active than we were 20,30, 40 or 50 years ago, I remember when we were kids hardly anyone has a car on the street and everyone walked or cycled to work/school, now there's 2-3 cars for each household and some even take their cars to the shops even though it's only around the corner, most heavy industries have now disappeared and manual jobs have become automated, all adds up and contributes to the obesity crisis IMHO.

edit, here's the study that the Mail is referring to:

http://www.amjmed.com/pb/assets/raw/Health Advance/journals/ajm/AJM_Aug14_PR_Ladabaum.pdf

@noblehead The first paragraph of the report you reference says:

A study published in The American Journal of Medicine reveals that in the past 20 years there has been a sharp decrease in physical exercise
and an increase in average body mass index (BMI), while caloric intake has remained steady.

And then goes on
Investigators theorized that a nationwide drop in leisuretime physical activity, especially among young women, may be responsible for the upward trend in obesity rates.

Now it is statistically invalid to use such an association as any kind of proof that lack of exercise causes obesity. Not that the researchers are saying that. Indeed it is interesting that the researchers do not make a definite causal connection between the lack of exercise and obesity.

They say they have controlled for the caloric intake, but fail to reveal exactly what the diet is. Different types of food can have the same caloric value yet have vastly different effects upon metabolism.

So it is possible that the change in diet, though maintaining the same caloric value may be responsible for the change in girth.

The sharp decrease in exercise may in fact be possibly due to the devastating effects upon the metabolism of the garbage that we as a society are now encouraged to eat, plus the fact that people are too obese to exercise well.

Indeed many suggest that this is exactly what has happened over the last 20-40 years as diet has changed to refined carbohydrate, increased use of fructose (from corn syrup) as in pop/soda and the replacement fats in food with sugars to make them more palatable. This is what causes obesity in my opinion and in many more knowledgeable people than me (which isn't hard). I refer you also to the Australian TV programme videos I posted in Fat = Cholesterol = Heart Disease = Statins thread I posted.

I know, as I'm sure you do, that there are many thin people (without diabetes) who do little exercise and seem to eat quite happily and yet don't put on weight.

It is a fact, as I'm sure many folk on these forums can attest to that though they exercise really hard, their weight doesn't come down so easily if at all. They may even have exercised and still kept putting on weight. if exercise was they key to avoiding obesity and to getting rid of it then we simply wouldn't have an obesity epidemic. As everyone would know exactly what they had to do.

However, we all know that exercise is beneficial for a variety of metabolic and other bodily processes, but it isn't the solution to getting rid of weight, I only wish it was.

As for Gary Taubes, may I humbly suggest that you do get to know him. He is a very well regarded, experienced and award winning writer on scientific matters who in his book the Diet Delusion and elsewhere has written extensively and with full references on how the current obesity epidemic has come about - mainly because of The US Senate's decision that a low fat diet was the answer to heart disease - re Ancel Keys et al. http://garytaubes.com/

And if you ever go to New Zealand the Tokelauans are a wonderful warm people who I'm sure would welcome you with open arms. ... and lots of white bread, rice, potatoes and pop

Oh and you are so sweet in pointing out that I'm a newbie to the forum. I'll never be able to match your 11,000 plus posts which is quite astonishing.

Cheers.

One of the GPs at my surgery is a fell runner and cyclist and slim. His take is that exercise has multiple benefits for health ( mental well being, cardiovascular etc) but weight loss isn't one of its benefits. I think it is important to not be a couch potato but if I remember the section from Taubes' book correctly, the difference between putting on 40 or 50 lbs between youth and late middle age amounts to eating and excess of 20 calories a day over that time so it isn't a simple case of overeating and not burning it off that gets us fat. Looking round where I am today the town is full of fat people and in particular very fat young women holding bottles of sugary pop. There are also a lot of thin women with bellies over spilling the top of their trousers - they often look like malnourished children that you see on famine appeals as they are are thin limbed and yet have this huge paunch - I am no scientist but I think others think this is a reflection of the rise in metabolic disease. Many apparently thin people will have high levels of visceral fat. IMHO I think that the last thirty years has been a terrible experiment with human health- the drive to low fat and high carbs, combined with the runaway train that is cheap food production/ high profit has got us to where we are today. Just walking round my local Asda showed me how few shelves are devoted to things to cook oneself and how much is prepacked carb laden rubbish.

gfmoore, we can agree to disagree about the contents of the article.

As for your suggestion to get to know Gary Taubes, I'd rather not thanks although I'm sure he is a nice chap, if I were to read or get to know every diet guru that's been mentioned on the forum my bookshelf would be creaking at the seams, I have no need or desire to follow someone else's dietary path or believes as I'm doing OK plodding along as I am

btw, the sarcasm in your last two paragraph is unwarranted and it says more about you then it does me, however I'll not report in this instance.

c'mon guys. We are all here to help each other, not bicker and score points?

jim

gfmoore said:

As for Gary Taubes, may I humbly suggest that you do get to know him. He is a very well regarded, experienced and award winning writer on scientific matters who in his book the Diet Delusion and elsewhere has written extensively and with full references on how the current obesity epidemic has come about - mainly because of The US Senate's decision that a low fat diet was the answer to heart disease - re Ancel Keys et al. http://garytaubes.com/

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i assume this is the same Gaty Taubes who used to call himself DR Gary Taubes untill it was revealed that he had bought his doctorate off the internet is that correct ?

Is it also the Gary Taubes who had to remove certain passages from the second edition of his first book after they were proven to be absolute rubbish and totally incorrect?

To be honest anyone who talks about Dr Gary Taubes in a positive manor really needs to investigate what he has done and written and not believe it all just because it was in a book, the man is a proven charlatan, just google Gary Taubes fraud.

The fact is even most hard care low carbers no longer quote a lot of what he has written in his books.

I also suggest that you actually read what Ancel Keys said instead of believing what others say, he didnt demonise fat at all. What he actually said or the gist of it was that sugar (carbs) AND fat should be eaten in moderating. Unfortunately in the USA the corn growers/sugar lobbyists managed to get the sugar (carbs) message hidden as America was/is the largest grower of corn in the world (probably) it was hardly surprising was it.

So then he gets misquoted in a couple of books and low carbers all over the world not just in the States all talk about Keys starting the fat is bad campaign when in reality he did and said nothing of the sort.

Knowledge is key, but dont beleive everything you read, especially on the internet as a huge percentage of it is just plain wrong.

Have a nice weekend

I've just skimmed this thread and some very good points raised so far which is spoilt slightly by a few unnecessary remarks. No need for it, even if we disagree, let's try to keep it semi-friendly
Thanks, Mo

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

cold ethyl said:

One of the GPs at my surgery is a fell runner and cyclist and slim. His take is that exercise has multiple benefits for health ( mental well being, cardiovascular etc) but weight loss isn't one of its benefits. I think it is important to not be a couch potato but if I remember the section from Taubes' book correctly, the difference between putting on 40 or 50 lbs between youth and late middle age amounts to eating and excess of 20 calories a day over that time so it isn't a simple case of overeating and not burning it off that gets us fat. Looking round where I am today the town is full of fat people and in particular very fat young women holding bottles of sugary pop. There are also a lot of thin women with bellies over spilling the top of their trousers - they often look like malnourished children that you see on famine appeals as they are are thin limbed and yet have this huge paunch - I am no scientist but I think others think this is a reflection of the rise in metabolic disease. Many apparently thin people will have high levels of visceral fat. IMHO I think that the last thirty years has been a terrible experiment with human health- the drive to low fat and high carbs, combined with the runaway train that is cheap food production/ high profit has got us to where we are today. Just walking round my local Asda showed me how few shelves are devoted to things to cook oneself and how much is prepacked carb laden rubbish.

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Been in a big town centre today and there are droves of huge fat people!
Massively fat.
I'm overweight and felt skinny.
The paunch on women is a new phenomenon ... especially on young women who have been pregnant.
I read somewhere that modern wheat production is the main suspect.
The green revolution of the sixties enabled much higher yields of wheat ... achieved by crossing the wheat with grasses that humans cannot digest.
Forty years later it's starting to go pear shaped ... like many of the people!

mo1905 said:

I've just skimmed this thread and some very good points raised so far which is spoilt slightly by a few unnecessary remarks. No need for it, even if we disagree, let's try to keep it semi-friendly
Thanks, Mo

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

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Though I appreciate that you want to keep the peace, if I may I will take the opportunity to make a response.

@noblehead I accept I was being sarcastic, but I do not appreciate being patronised as "new to the forum". Maybe I just misread your words or misconstrued them. if I did then I apologise.

However as far as the good people of Tokelau I was being quite serious. They are nice folk.

I am sensing that you do not subscribe to the argument I presented, fair enough, and I do recognise (and I am not being sarcastic here) the incredible contribution you have obviously made to this forum. Long may it continue, but as you said we can have differences of opinion.

@Sid Bonkers I did as you suggested and google Gary Taubes and fraud and though I did not do an extensive search I did not find much evidence of what you suggested. He may well have removed certain passages from his book, but considering the size of it and the number of points and ideas he brings forth I would not be surprised at some evidence being found to be wrong. The vast majority of what he says is still worthy of attention and consideration. Much of it is reporting what researchers and experts have said and written. Clearly, as with many others who oppose the current accepted views on diet and metabolism he is under attack from the many researchers, pharmaceutical companies and others who have a huge vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

If he "bought" a doctorate then he was wrong to do this, but the message is still valid and worthy of consideration.

As for Ancel Keys, he certainly picked his data to suit his purposes, e.g. in only picking data from countries that "proved" his hypothesis. I might accept that he meant well, but he has a lot to answer for in terms of the misery, anguish and sickness that is undoubtedly caused by the promotion of low fat.

BUT, that's my opinion. You may have a totally different take on that and I accept that.

As for believing everything on the internet, I'm not that naive, but not everything on the internet is wrong, in fact a great deal of it is valuable, useful and helpful as most of us have discovered.

I've said all that I want to say on this thread. I have clearly hit some nerves. In that sense being "new to the forum" does carry its risks as it would seem that there is some "history" that I am unaware of, well that's my reading of this. However, nothing personal is meant by anything I have said. if I have caused any offence then that is regrettable and is something for which I humbly apologise.

brilliant, just watched it !

gfmoore said:

As for Ancel Keys, he certainly picked his data to suit his purposes, e.g. in only picking data from countries that "proved" his hypothesis. I might accept that he meant well, but he has a lot to answer for in terms of the misery, anguish and sickness that is undoubtedly caused by the promotion of low fat.

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Err no but that is exactly what writters who write diet books for profit like Gary Taubes and Barry Groves do, Ancel Keys was a scientist who didnt cherry pick anything and all his research was peer reviewed.

I apologise for the doctorate statement that was of course the notorious (not a doctor) Barry Groves not Gary Taubes at all so please forgive me as these scurrilous diet gurus all merge into one after 6 years of good control whilst eating carbs with most meals. There is little between them all these money driven diet gurus, out to make money from insecure, overweight and or diabetic people who are struggling to control their weight and bg levels and susceptible to this sort of disgusting rubbish.

Oddly I see hardly any low carbers who were posting here when I joined who are still active posters, why do you think that might be? Smoke and mirrors perhaps.

Thats it from me folks.

I would urge everyone to do their own research before setting out on any diet that they will need to be on for the rest of their lives, and if anyone knows of such a diet please share it because I dont believe one exists other than eating less food. There and Ive told you that for free, no need to buy a book at all.

No you didn't

enjoyed the video, good one, thanks

Avocado Sevenfold said:

For a good old-fashioned lynching and pitch forking, head over to the daily mail article about this subject.

On second thoughts, stay here, it might be bad for your bg levels.

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Otherwise known in our house as the daily fail, the Ukip paper of choice!