Nurse & Low Carb Diet

the_anticarb

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quote: Non compliance is an interesting one too - there is no doubt that there are many - I have caught quite a few in the act as I live near the surgery!
Sure Ally but isn't it the patient's right not to comply with medical advice, after all it's their body and they have the final say as to what goes in to it.

I find the whole non compliance issue quite interesting, I've always been of the opinion that the medical profession can advise me but at the end of the day it's up to me whehter I take that advice, of course if I don't take their advice then I take the responsiblity for living with whatever consequences.

I work in an advisory profession myself (business, not healthcare) and always respect the customer's right not to take my advice even if privately I am thinking 'the stupid *******!)

Does it work the same way in healthcare? I doubt it
 

Patch

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Noblehead said:
Where did you come to this conclusion? I like many others have the utmost respect for our gp's and other health care providers, just remember a bad apple doesn't spoil the bunch, so do refrain from trying to speak for us all when drawing your own conclusion!

GP's are told what how to treat diabetic patiemnts, so maybe they're not to blame - they're just following guidelines, right? BUT, if after being told by a patient that following those guidelines has had an adverse effect that patients health, the GP STILL insists on spouting those guidelines BACK at the patient - that's just irresponsible.

And the people that do "have the utmost respect" for these GP's are the one's who'll suffer in the long run.
 

lovinglife

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probably regret this but going to add my twopence worth regarding the "respect thing"

Respect has nothing at all to do with complying - in fact in my book quite the opposite - I have a dear friend who I disagree with on an hourly basis sometimes - she is the person I respect most in my life - I too have to deal with a lot of "establishment" regarding my son - I rarely agree with what they offer but respect their knowledge in their field (if not my son) and I often don't comply - but I still hold them in respect and from their reaction they afford me that same respect.

I once had a boss who was a tyrant - terrified of being bullied or losing my job I complied with everything he told me to do - I was 100% compliant but as for respect - nah - none whatsoever!
 

noblehead

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Patch said:
Noblehead said:
Where did you come to this conclusion? I like many others have the utmost respect for our gp's and other health care providers, just remember a bad apple doesn't spoil the bunch, so do refrain from trying to speak for us all when drawing your own conclusion!

GP's are told what how to treat diabetic patiemnts, so maybe they're not to blame - they're just following guidelines, right? BUT, if after being told by a patient that following those guidelines has had an adverse effect that patients health, the GP STILL insists on spouting those guidelines BACK at the patient - that's just irresponsible.

Mmmmm, not to sure what you mean here Patch as the paragraph seems disjointed! :?

And the people that do "have the utmost respect" for these GP's are the one's who'll suffer in the long run.

Well I must be the exception to the rule then, apart from some issues with retinopathy which has been stable over the last few years I don't have any other diabetes complications and live a full and active life despite being diabetic for nearly 30 years; bp normal (120/65 average) Cholesterol 4.1, GFR 96 and last a1c of 6.7, so choosing to follow my gp/diabetes clinics advice has not been detrimental to me! :D

Patch, I am aware that you blindly follow the advice of a deluded few on another forum that contradicts any medical advice that disputes their own ideology of how diabetics should eat and control their diabetes, but do keep in mind that these people are mostly senior citizens who have very little to lose in the long-term, and anyone who blindly follows their advice without a professional medical opinion are plain crazy in my view.

There is a young type 1 diabetic on that particular forum who has taken the LC mantra to heart, so much so that she has put her own young children on the same diet which is beyound comprehension, but not one person has advised her against this dangerous practise, and despite having erratic control she is still under the impression that you need very little or no insulin to cover meals, which explains her high bg readings, all- in-all these are friends I can well do without thanks!

So, do I stick with the professionals or follow the advice of a sad deluded few............can't make my mind up! :wink:

Nigel
 

ally5555

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It is always interesting that low carbing stirs up so emotion.

I wish that some people would accept that it is not always easy to follow and I suspect that if people were being honest you have to supplement the diet . Even Doc Bernstien says to and sells his own brand! My analysis on here a while ago certainly showed that low carbers had low levels of some nutrients and were not consuming massive amounts of fat as alot of them thought. My old nemesis has taken the very poor diet plan off his website was low in everything!!

However as a HCP I do expect some civil behaviour from people - in your own professions I am not sure you would like it if people were rude but it appears that many people think they can treat health staff however they like!
 

Patch

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Noblehead - I don't blindly follow the advice of anyone. I've done A LOT of research, and lots of testing.

By your own admission, you blindly follow the advice of your GP. If that works for you, great. Maybe you don't have diabetes as severly as some of us.

I don't expect my participation on other forums to be brought into question here. Are you stalking me? (Or maybe tehre's more t hat one Patch??? :shock: )

Noblehead said:
do keep in mind that these people are mostly senior citizens who have very little to lose in the long-term

You're a classy guy.

Noblehead said:
this dangerous practise

What dangeroud practice??? You're grabbing at straws to try to win points.
 

noblehead

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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ..........Patch, you go your way and I'll go mine! :wink:

Nigel
 

jaykay

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I'm not sure that I understand most of the fuss about low carbing but it does seem to cause an awful lot of hullabaloo. I have cut out bread, potatoes, most rice, pasta and starchy vegetables and eat fruit in moderation. I have been on this 'diet' for about 6 months, lost over 24kg in that time and not felt unwell or rough in any way. I did get a bit tired at the beginning but my body seems to have adjusted now. Since meeting an unhelpful nurse inititially, my new DN and dietician have both approved my diet, so perhaps they are more enlightened than others in the country and I'm just lucky. To me, there is an unerring logic in not eating the foods that make my disease worse.
 

badmedisin

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ally5555 said:
The internet is a great media but there is also alot of rubbish on it - as a wicked HCP I do find it difficult that people will take advice from total strangers - just an observation!

Allyx

To a lot of us, our HCPs are total strangers!
I've rarely seen the same consultant twice, so I never have the opportunity to build any trust in them or work out whether they seem to know what they're talking about. I've seen the named consultant of my diabetes clinic. She had a massive strop about me being on Depo, then actually shouted at me and wrote a really insulting letter to my GP because I didn't want an insulin pump. I came to the conclusion that she was utterly mad, and if she bothered to give me any advice, I probably wouldn't follow it.

I know a lot of patients are abusive to doctors, and there's no call for it. But sometimes we're just pushed to breaking point by nasty supercilious people who have all the power and won't take our opinions into account. That kind of person is hard to trust or take advice from.

As for the whole low carbs debate, surely it's personal choice? It seems to work for a lot of people so maybe it's worth a try. I just wouldn't tell my dietician until I had results to show it was working :)
 

mike944

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Looks like I have raised a controversial topic.

Well I spoke to the dietician and got a significantly different response than I did off the nurse. The dietician did explain that the long term effects of low carbing are unknown but did not condemn the diet I was on. We discussed what I was eating and she suggested I try to add more low GI fruit in to my diet. Very nice lady.

I will say I do not want to cause any conflict with any of the medical professionals I have dealt with and I am pleased with the treatment that I have received. However I do think that we are all different and therefore different things may work for us. I can understand why they have to give standard guideline advice as there will be a lot of people out there who do not understand complex dietary advice. No offence to anyone but as a nation we are pretty clueless when it comes to food with a lot of people not knowing how to prepare basic meals let alone low carb or low gi.

Latest blood reading is 6.9 so things are still going in the right direction. I haven't upped my meds and have stuck at the 2 x 80mg a day. I just don't see the point in upping them when my levels are still dropping.
 

Dillinger

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noblehead said:
Patch, I am aware that you blindly follow the advice of a deluded few on another forum that contradicts any medical advice that disputes their own ideology of how diabetics should eat and control their diabetes, but do keep in mind that these people are mostly senior citizens who have very little to lose in the long-term, and anyone who blindly follows their advice without a professional medical opinion are plain crazy in my view.

I am a Type 1 diabetic. This means I have no residual pancreas function at all. This means that my blood sugars are solely a product of the food I eat, the insulin I inject and my metabolic rate. The reason there is such argument here and elsewhere is that IT COULD NOT BE CLEARER that the key factor in getting blood sugar under control is dropping carbohydrates.

This is explained again and again to people like Noblehead who cannot seem to understand that his pancreas is functioning to some extent and therefore his 'relationship' with carbohydrate is no more relevant to appropriate diabetic diet than someone who is not a diabetic at all.

When someone repeatedly refuses to engage their brain the only proper response is disdain or despair.

Ally, Noblehead, Jopar and the rest of you; I despair...
 

noblehead

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Dillinger said:
The reason there is such argument here and elsewhere is that IT COULD NOT BE CLEARER that the key factor in getting blood sugar under control is dropping carbohydrates.

Err.........you don't say! :roll: Have I said anything different Al ? I have more than halved my daily carb intake in the last two years to a level that keeps my bg within my own personal target range, I have, and always will be a advocate of carb reduction in controlling diabetes, my view has never changed since joining this forum. To what extent a individual reduces their carb intake is purely personal, not for me to dictate or preach!


This is explained again and again to people like Noblehead who cannot seem to understand that his pancreas is functioning to some extent and therefore his 'relationship' with carbohydrate is no more relevant to appropriate diabetic diet than someone who is not a diabetic at all.

We all have a relationship with carbs, it is impossible to eat a healthy diet without avoiding some form of carbs in vegetables etc, I think what annoys you is that I and many others don't buy the extreme low-carb/high fat diet that you follow, my choice and I want to be around a little longer on this earth to see my children have children, nothing wrong with that is there?


When someone repeatedly refuses to engage their brain the only proper response is disdain or despair.

Ally, Noblehead, Jopar and the rest of you; I despair...


I despair too Al, trying to convince people like yourself who seem to think there's only one way of controlling diabetes and no other is like banging your head against the wall, take a good look around and see that there is people on this forum who have exceptional hba1c's in the 5's without having to resort to a low carb diet, remember ''we are all different'' and ''what works for one may not work for another''...........have a nice day! :wink:


Nigel
 

phoenix

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Dillinger said:
I am a Type 1 diabetic. This means I have no residual pancreas function at all.
Really, you know that do you?. Over 66% of Joslin Medalists appear to still produce some insulin. This suggests that many type 1 diabetic patients may still make insulin even after 50 years of diabetes.These findings have been confirmed through metabolic and post-mortem studies of Medalists
Unless you've had a C pep recently I doubt if you know. Besides which the other people who you mention also have type 1.
As for myself my C pep showed minimal production 5 years ago, although I might sometimes think I have some residual function my diabetologue insists that there won't be much

This means that my blood sugars are solely a product of the food I eat, the insulin I inject and my metabolic rate.
You are right that your blood glucose levels are affected by the insulin you inject, hence trying to use it in a way that as nearly possible mimicks normal insulin patterns as possible' with multiple injections or a pump. Where I live most people don't read English and so are far less influenced by the echo chamber of the internet, (it's an interesting exercise in itself finding out where some of the ideas derive from and the small band of people that propagate them)
People here tend to follow advice from professionals. Strangely, the people I've met on courses mostly seem to find the advice they're given works well.
Similarly people in the UK who go on a DAFNE (dose adjustment for normal eating course) seem to find it's advice works.
You also seem to overlook your activity levels (as do many people on forums) Exercise is a very important part of 'treatment', thats why on courses here there is an hour of it every day! It helps reduce insulin resisitance, something you have suggested you have a problem with.

The reason there is such argument here and elsewhere is that IT COULD NOT BE CLEARER that the key factor in getting blood sugar under control is dropping carbohydrates.
Rubbish: for the reasons above. Learning to count them, eating the right amount for your activitiy levels and above all choosing 'good carbohyrates' is fundamental. Cutting them out is not.
This is explained again and again to people like Noblehead who cannot seem to understand that his pancreas is functioning to some extent and therefore his 'relationship' with carbohydrate is no more relevant to appropriate diabetic diet than someone who is not a diabetic at all.
Obviously he can give up taking insulin, since according to you he doesn't have diabetes! SInce when did you have access to his medical notes and where did you gain your medical degree.
When someone repeatedly refuses to engage their brain the only proper response is disdain or despair.
Ally, Noblehead, Jopar and the rest of you; I despair..

How patronising, I am so glad I didn't read this sort of pessimistic diatribe when I was first diagnosed.I think I would have given up. Luckilly, I read about people who live life to the full, who climb Everest, run marathons and swim the channel. They sure as heck didn't do it by 'cutting out the carbs', though they are certainly very aware of them. On forums I read of people who had learned to use their insulin sensibly and live normal lives like Jopar, Noblehead and SueM.
And since then I've engaged my brain fully. I read of the the sucessful people, those who can control their diabetes, not let it control them.
I've also got back to finishing my post grad degree, a refresher comes in very handy when interpreting the evidence. I despair when I read some of the nonsense,pseudo science , dredging out of long ago falsified papers, misinterpretation of research and outright woo that gets posted in some places.
.

Oh and one remark to Nigel, be careful about the age allusions, I'm not that much younger than some of them elsewhere but I'm not yet ready to join the Darby and Joan club. You're as old as you feel! :D
 

noblehead

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phoenix said:
Oh and one remark to Nigel, be careful about the age allusions, I'm not that much younger than some of them elsewhere but I'm not yet ready to join the Darby and Joan club. You're as old as you feel! :D

Please accept my apology Phoenix and anyone else who may have been offended by this remark. My intentions was in reference to two previously banned members on this forum who use another diabetes forum as a platform to constantly abuse, slander and ridicule the good members of this forum and its moderation team.

Best wishes

Nigel
 

ally5555

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Dillinger - you low carb and that is your choice but there are many on here who do not and have good results. I would also include my own pts and some who I have referred to the local Dafne course. I see 100s of people every year and the advantage I have is that I actually have access to medical records and see their results so I know they are accurate.

I too have been the victim of those rather nasty individuals - in fact they have a thread about me right now - I intend to make a formal complaint to David .

I have analysed alot of low carbers diets - many from here , we did a little experiment last year and most of them had quite low intakes of fat and other nutrients. They would not accept the results and in my humble opinion low carbing means supplements. And that is your choice. One individual had a meal plan on his website and it was completely deficient in evereything! I note he has removed it!
Low carbing is a choice but you probably need to supplement - even Bermstein says that!

Allyx
 

jaykay

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Ally, do you think that sometimes the problem here is one of amounts or definition? I say, if asked, that I low carb as it seems easier to say rather than explain that I don't eat potatoes, pasta or bread and reduce wholewheat rice and starchy root veggies. I would be very surprised if you knew the rest of my diet that you thought it was deficient in vitamins or minerals and my dietitian thought it was 'an excellent diet'. But I'm guessing from what some people say that they wouldn't consider it low carb at all! I just wonder if there could be a definition stickied up somewhere so that newbies, like me, wouldn't get even more confused than they already are about what to eat or not eat. I don't suppose that anyone in the know is advocating a high carb diet for diabetics but that's kind of the implication sometimes that comes out of the debates.
 

Patch

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That's a weak argument. Everyone is difficent in something. How many people go their whole lives NEVER having their diet nutritionally evaluated? Just because they don't exhibit symptoms of nutrient difficiency, doesn't mean it's not there.

I don't think it's a reason to discount a control method.

By the way, what "essential nutrients" exactly ARE there in carbs? What do I get from Bread, potatoes, pasta, rice, that I can't get from any other food? (Can one really be difficient in carbs??? I doubt it.)

You're the expert on this, Ally - I expect a concise answer to the above. (Though I'm sure I won't get one).
 

cugila

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People who are touchy.......feign indignation at the slightest thing. Hypocrites, bullies and cowards.
First of all the only definition that was posted here and is already a 'Sticky' gives numbers that certain people call low/medium carbs etc. Later on the 'goalposts' got moved by somebody else ?
So we have conflicting advice into what actually constitutes low carbs.

On another forum I am apparently told now ( I don't actually read it anymore )that I low carb as I consume around 60g per day........when I was actually posting on that place then I was told I wasn't a low carber but I was probably eating LESS than now ! Still that's another story......... :twisted:

Ken.

Now for a Monitor viewpoint...........

Can we point out yet again that this Forum is for ALL Diabetic's and ALL diet choices made by individuals. On this Forum nobody has any problem with those that choose to ultra low carb, it is one of many choices available to the individual member.

Only by keeping a Food Diary and frequent testing will you begin to know which diet is suitable for you, taking into account all the variables. Your personal medical history, personal choices and certain dietary requirements. We try to give a balanced view of things here and ALL types of diet are discussed. Everyone's viewpoint should be respected and not rubbished just because you do not agree with it.

The OP asked for help ......a simple question. Each member can give a positive answer from your own respective viewpoints without restorting to 'sniping' at each other. In that way the member concerned will have different opinions and make up their own mind without wading through a thread of arguments.

Please keep all comments Civil and polite..........that way, means we don't have to get involved as in previous threads about this subject.

sugarless sue and cugila
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