Reducing Carbs and Eating fat with raised cholestrol

[Energize]

Hi

Whilst I can understand the sense for reducing carbs to help control BG in diabetes, I would like some verification regarding not reducing the fat content in a reduced carb diet. I can appreciate the effect fats have on delaying the absorbtion the carbs and thus not feeling as hungry so quickly. However, if cholestrol is already raised, will this have an undesirable effect on the cholestrol readings?

I'm Type 2, on Metformin. I'm trying to get all this in my head although have started to reduce carbs. It rather makes my choice of foods difficult and very limited for various reasons but one is that I'm not to eat cheese, yoghurt, caffiene (I drink de-caff). I don't eat fish either unfortunately.

I do love certain fruits but, of course, they are high in sugar so need to be careful when I eat them.

I have to say, all this is rather daunting at the moment but am hoping I will be able to get to grips with it before too long.

As I said, it's mainly the question re eating higher fats and the effects on the cholestrol that is my immediate concern.

Thanks

 

[pianoman]

If you want to keep your caloric intake constant and need to reduce dietary carbohydrates to help manage BGs, that means you need to either increase dietary protein and/or dietary fat.

Protein tends to be more expensive (compare lean cuts of meat to regular), we only a need a relatively small amount each day (around 60-80g or so), Amino Acids (Protein building blocks) can be converted to Glucose by the Liver so will tend to raise your BGs, and there are some concerns (possibly overstated) that protein can be harder on the kidneys.

So that leaves dietary Fat...

Rather than think of this approach as an "High Fat" diet (it's a relative term anyway) instead consider it as a real whole food diet with the nutrient balance as provided by nature; with no human interventions of processing or refining to make it "low fat". You may not find a need to actively add fat to your diet, just don't avoid it anymore... eat the way people used to eat... back in the days when milk was just milk and not messed around as 1% 2% etc...

Read what you can about cholesterol but my experience -- shared by many I have conversed with on forums -- has been that it is dietary carbohydrates that cause the biggest negative changes to cholesterol... especially the refined and concentrated carbohydrates as found in so many processed and packaged foods these days.

It may shake up your view of what constitute "healthy eating" but it does not need to be a diet where you feel deprived of tastes, textures and variety... there is a World of food choices out there to discover.

To start your reading here is an abstract from early 2010: http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2010/01/13/ajcn.2009.27725.abstract

Conclusions: A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD. More data are needed to elucidate whether CVD risks are likely to be influenced by the specific nutrients used to replace saturated fat.

 

[Energize]

Thanks for that information and link, Pianoman. In fact, I have been wondering if we ate what was eaten years ago, would we have half of the current diseases? Like you say, foods are so processed nowadays, you hardly know what you are eating.

You have confirmed much of what I instintively have felt - to eat 'normal' food, watching the carbs but not eating the foods where 'stuff' has been removed, modified etc all to make it 'healthier'.

Thanks again. I just hope I end up eating the necessary foods to lower both BG and cholestrol, and have significant weight loss, without feeling I've had to starve myself to achieve it.

Cheers

 

[viviennem]

I can't remember whether I've suggested to you that you have a look at the diet I use - 'Viv's Modified Atkins Diet', which is a sticky thread on the Low-carb Diabetes Diet' thread.

Obviously you'd need to adapt it a bit for the foods you can eat, and if you don't want to go so low-carb, you can add Low GI foods or other low-carb foods using (eg) a carb counter book as your guide.

All I can say is, that the last time I tried the pure Atkins Induction Phase, which I followed for 18 months, my cholesterol readings were the best they've ever been. Cholesterol is made in the liver; only about 20% of our cholesterol comes directly from the diet. When excess glucose from carbs get turned into fat for storage, I seem to remember that they turn into triglycerides - which are just the fats we don't need.

Pianoman is quite right about thinking of it as a whole or complete food diet - don't go out of your way to add fat, just don't avoid it. Use foods that are as natural and unprocessed as you can get them - organic if you can afford them (I can't - it's not esential). And enjoy your food!

I worked out once that I eat between 1500 and 2000 calories a day on my modified diet, and I'm never hungry. I don't even have that restless, bored, 'what-can-I-eat-next' feeling any more.

Viv 8)

 

[noblehead]

Energise,

The following from HEART UK has some excellent information and advice regarding cholesterol matters:

http://www.heartuk.org.uk/index.php?/he ... de_simple/

Nigel

 

[Dillinger]

Hi,

Reducing carbs and eating fat will have a good effect on things like your triglyceride levels and your HDL which are the key pointers to problems rather than a 'total' cholesterol level.

Here is a rather 'home made' article but it has some good stuff and interesting links in it about fat and cholesterol.

http://www.health-report.co.uk/saturate ... fits.htm#5

Also, if you really want to look into it read the Gary Taubes book 'Why We Get Fat' and 'The Great Cholesterol Con' by Dr Kendrick.

Regards

Dillinger

 

[pianoman]

The following from HEART UK has some excellent information and advice regarding cholesterol matters:

http://www.heartuk.org.uk/index.php?/he ... de_simple/

It also has some misinformation...

The three coronary arteries that feed your heart muscle are very small but they play a vital role in keeping your heart healthy and pumping properly. Too much cholesterol in your blood can lead to cholesterol being deposited on the walls of these arteries, these deposits are called atheroma. Over a period of time the arteries become narrowed. This process is called atherosclerosis and it is what causes coronary heart disease (CHD).

It has not been proven that it is the level of cholesterol in the blood which causes atheroma.

Atheroma builds up INSIDE the artery walls -- the image of blocked drain pipes is misleading.

Yes these plaques contain cholesterol: scabs over a cut contain platelets and fibrin... does that mean they caused the damage/cut? One of cholesterol's many, many essential roles in the body is in healing damage.

It has not been conclusively established that this process is the causative path for CHD or CVD.

In fact the consensus opinion may be completely bass-ackwards in its association of cholesterol with CVD/CHD: fireman are almost 100% associated with house fires... does that mean we can prevent house fires by reducing the number of firemen and women?

Cholesterol may be there to heal the artery walls.. so that means we need to figure out what is causing the inflammation/damage in the first place. My money is on large and frequent intakes of refined/concentrated carbohydrates, including fructose.

 

[Patch]

Interesting stuff, pianoman.

 

[Dillinger]

In fact the consensus opinion may be completely bass-ackwards in its association of cholesterol with CVD/CHD

I agree - also, think about it; the perception is that cholesterol 'builds up' and 'clogs arteries' - which is what Heart UK's link says - "Over a period of time the arteries become narrowed. This process is called atherosclerosis and it is what causes coronary heart disease (CHD)." Now, arteries are the high pressure vessels and veins low pressure. If all this clogging up was going on why isn't it happening in the veins first and foremost?

It seems to make more sense that the atherosclerosis is a repair response to stresses in the arteries rather than some bizarre consequence of diet where your scrambled egg somehow gets smeared over your carotid artery...

And anyway, as Pianoman has said it's not even in your arteries; it's behind the endothelial wall of your artery.

Put don't let that bother anyone; get those statins down you...

Dillinger

 

[viviennem]

Dillinger said:

Put don't let that bother anyone; get those statins down you...

Very useful for very many people, and don't let me put anyone off! but google spacedoc.net first! :wink:

Viv 8)

 

[noblehead]

It has not been proven that it is the level of cholesterol in the blood which causes atheroma.

No doubt HEART UK will be going on the current understanding of the causes of Atheroma (quick Google search suggests likewise) but you could write to them and tell them they have it completely wrong.

It has not been conclusively established that this process is the causative path for CHD or CVD.

No not conclusive but the choice is yours to accept or ignore the current advice!

Best wishes

Nigel

 

[pianoman]

I wonder what a quick Google search in the 1600's would have said about the Earth being the centre of the Universe?

Fortunately there are enough critical thinkers out there that we no longer live on a flat earth at the centre of the universe.

Science is not about consensus but testable, repeatable evidence... I have read the evidence for myself, applied critical thinking and I have made up my own mind, thanks.

On the other hand statins are a multi-billion Pound/Dollar/Euro industry and you might care to check out who supports Heart UK... http://www.heartuk.org.uk/index.php?/about_us/heart_uk_partners1/ including...

AstraZeneca UK Limited
Bayer Schering Pharma
Boehringer-Ingelheim
Bristol Myers Squibb
Merck Pharmaceuticals
Pfizer Limited

 

[Albert]

In fact the consensus opinion may be completely bass-ackwards in its association of cholesterol with CVD/CHD

I agree - also, think about it; the perception is that cholesterol 'builds up' and 'clogs arteries' - which is what Heart UK's link says - "Over a period of time the arteries become narrowed. This process is called atherosclerosis and it is what causes coronary heart disease (CHD)." Now, arteries are the high pressure vessels and veins low pressure. If all this clogging up was going on why isn't it happening in the veins first and foremost?

‪Atherosclerosis is a process that occurs in areas of high shear stress. The plaques tend to form as a result of injury to the blood vessel linings, influx of fatty materials, and then clearance of that material by macrophages which are a cell type involved in cleaning up messes in the body. The fat laden macrophages are eventually encased in a fibrotic plaque where the muscular layer of the artery appears to thicken in compensation for the events mentioned above. It's ultimately a complex process that results, in part, from the dragging/shearing force of the high-pressure high-speed blood going by. This is why it's a problem of arteries and not veins. Arteries have lots of shear stress, and veins have almost none.

The above is an answer I was once given on another site. However. veins too can get clogged as well.

I agree with noblehead - it is a choice we all have to make. Do we go with the accepted thinking and advice regarding cholesterol, or do we ignore such advice. Maybe at our peril! Taubes and Kendrick aRe not exactly the authorities on such things, they are just outspoken, maybe THEY have got it wrong?

Food for thought when deciding what we should do regarding high fat consumption?

 

[pianoman]

So you suggest we should err on the side of caution which for you means sticking with the status quo? Eat low-fat and take statins?

How does that seem to be working these days because that advice has been followed for several decades now... we should probably have the whole obesity and heart disease problem licked by now... trouble is it just seems to be getting worse...

I think that sticking with the status quo is making people sick and killing them. That is also food for thought.

At the very least there is sufficient controversy about the role of cholesterol that a re-examination of the theories is warranted.

Galileo was also not considered "an authority" -- instead he was threatened with torture by the inquisition and placed under house arrest for the remainder of his days... branded a criminal.

 

[Albert]

I haven't said 'stick to the status quo'. What I do is stick to a low fat diet coupled with reduced carbs. Now I no plenty that do the same and have great results and good lipid levels which THEY are happy with.
I take a statin too. I don't pLay around with hings I really know nothing about, I'm just a diabetic, why should anybody follow what I do. Why should I follow the high fat mantra when it too is unproven. If you want to that's fine but you cannot prove to me that it is the correct thing to do. You can quote any number of so called 'experts' telling us to eat more fat. It means nothing to me. I go with my gut feeling and that is that excessive fat consumption is not a good idea. I don't go around telling everybody that that is what they should do!
My HbA1c and lipid levels are absolutely fine for me, why would I want to jeapordise that good control and risk cVD? Each to their own but I am not convinced by the moneymaking Taubes and Kendrick!

 

[pianoman]

I don't believe that I have been telling anyone what to do or eat. The question was asked by the OP and I offered an opinion. I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone what to do or think... quite the opposite -- I'm advocating you think for yourself rather than believe all the slick marketing out there.

By definition "excessive" anything is probably bad for our health... as above I advised eating real whole food but not going out of my way to avoid fat that naturally occurs in food which humans have been eating since forever.

As for "moneymaking" that seems like an ad hominem attack rather than any basis for debating the science being presented... but if you want to talk about motivation I'd remind you of the massive profits made by those who are selling statins drugs, and all those low-fat food alternatives lining the supermarket shelves.

 

[noblehead]

So you suggest we should err on the side of caution which for you means sticking with the status quo? Eat low-fat and take statins?

I don't take a statin but certainly eat low-fat as far as I can, it hasn't done me any harm and a coronary angiogram 6 weeks ago proved that following scientific thinking has certainly been beneficial to my health! Therefore stick with the status quo or do otherwise......the choice is yours :wink:

How does that seem to be working these days because that advice has been followed for several decades now... we should probably have the whole obesity and heart disease problem licked by now...

The advice has certainly been there but as to whether its been adhered too is a different matter, I would get a letter fired off to the worlds leading authorities on cardio health listing your medical credentials and tell them they have it all wrong.

Nigel

 

[pianoman]

Out of interest: who do you consider to be the "worlds leading authorities on cardio health"?

You know it is a wonder the human species has survived at all: what with the evil cholesterol lurking in our blood, saturated animal fat in every nook and cranny and now we are told that the rush of blood through the arteries damages them! :shock:

I will do what I understand to be the healthy choice and I will continue to voice my opinion on the subject, especially if it is requested.

 

[Albert]

I don't believe that I have been telling anyone what to do or eat. The question was asked by the OP and I offered an opinion. I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone what to do or think... quite the opposite -- I'm advocating you think for yourself rather than believe all the slick marketing out there.

By definition "excessive" anything is probably bad for our health... as above I advised eating real whole food but not going out of my way to avoid fat that naturally occurs in food which humans have been eating since forever.

As for "moneymaking" that seems like an ad hominem attack rather than any basis for debating the science being presented... but if you want to talk about motivation I'd remind you of the massive profits made by those who are selling statins drugs, and all those low-fat food alternatives lining the supermarket shelves.

Oh dear, you do seem a mite upset. I can't think why? What's all this about 'ad hominem' attacks? Nothing of the sort old chap, just a difference of opinion. Motivation to sell books by Taubes and Kendrick is also guided by money, just like drugs companies. They ALL want to make a load of money and retire happily on the proceeds. I bet if I wrote books telling people that fat is good and not to worry about it I would make a mint too! There are always those who accept such things alleging they know better than everybody else. Good luck to them, its a living I suppose.

I suppose you're going to tell me ALL statins are poison and nobody should take them? Now where have I heard all that before?

I too eat as much natural food as I can, low carbs, avoid fat as much as I can and that's my way of dealing with things. Now if You choose to eat fat and avoid statins thatt is a matter Forr you. It really doesn't bother me. In the same
Way it shouldn't bother you what I do. I too am old enough and wise enough to have done my research and I don't listen to those who say high fat is the best way forward. That is a matter which is under discussion. In other words we may all have something valid to contribute. People reading here can then decide who/what/how they look after their diabetes. I do hate people telling me what I should do when I have my own opinions about that matteR.

I'm afraid I've seen too much of the 'you must do this, must eat that and its the only way' to take too much notice of such things.

I suppose we will get the mods telling us to be 'niceeach other now. Whatever happened to good old fashioned discussion I wonder!

 

[pianoman]

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