Reversing T2 With Diet - Who Has Done It And Who Wants To Give It A Go?

[ab.clay]

I agree that's why LCHF is my way of life from now on!

 

[azure]

Do you have Type 2 @Bebo321 or are you asking out of interest for a family member or friend?

 

[AndBreathe]

Quite a few people on the forum have achieved this myself included BUT if you were to consume carbs on a regular basis you would again be classed as a diabetic that's why to maintain remission you still need to follow LCHF diet.

Connie - Your statement, ".... if you were to consume carbs on a regular basis you would again be classed as a diabetic ...." is a difinitive. I don't believe we know if your statement is true or not. It certainly does happens to some people, but it is my belief that this type of work and analysis hasn't been around long enough to know if that's the case for everyone.

Personally, I'm not too fussed about eating a carb-fest to test the theory, but over time the picture will become clearer. I would, however, agree that those who have reversed their T2 remain at risk of rediagnosis; particularly where a healthy weight and appropriate diet is not maintained.

I appreciate that sounds pedantic, but I'm always conscious many new folks search for this sort of topic when they arrive. Until we have certain knowledge, I think we all need to retain hope.

 

[connie104]

Connie - Your statement, ".... if you were to consume carbs on a regular basis you would again be classed as a diabetic ...." is a difinitive. I don't believe we know if your statement is true or not. It certainly does happens to some people, but it is my belief that this type of work and analysis hasn't been around long enough to know if that's the case for everyone.

Personally, I'm not too fussed about eating a carb-fest to test the theory, but over time the picture will become clearer. I would, however, agree that those who have reversed their T2 remain at risk of rediagnosis; particularly where a healthy weight and appropriate diet is not maintained.

I appreciate that sounds pedantic, but I'm always conscious many new folks search for this sort of topic when they arrive. Until we have certain knowledge, I think we all need to retain hope.

My experience of "falling off the wagon" in the early days when I was diagnosed some 7 years ago put my numbers back up to diabetic level and I have read similar stories from members here. It's only the last 3 years where I have stuck religiously to LCHF that I have been in remission . I would truly hope that it would be possible to "cure" diabetes but I know if I return to eating unlimited carbs again I would be diabetic again.

 

[john_pocock]

Just back from the doctors for a quick check up after stopping medication for 3 weeks
Blood pressure normal
Blood sugar levels 5.4 AV
no medication till next review in December
Easy I lost 4 stone in weight cut out pastry and white bread watch the sugar levels in products read the labels

educate your selfs and hopefully you could be like me

took Just under 18 months to get where I am now do I feel better Yes Is it worth it Yes
not celebrating with a cream cake or a beer

 

[nemiabonny]

I will always be a type 2 diabetic, no doubt about it. My diagnosis was based on a blood sugar reading of 468 mg/dl done in July 1991. A friend who was diagnosed a month ahead of me and who was on anti-diabetes pills complained about the hypo problems he was having. He said that they made him sicker than his usual high blood sugar levels. So when our family physician told me to take anti-diabetes pills, I begged him to allow me to try something which did not include pharma drugs. Before he would allow me to be on D&E control, he instructed me to have a stress test first to determine the condition of my heart. As soon as I passed the stress test the following day, I started running the stairs for about 2 hours per day in as many sessions as I could do each day. In less than 10 days, my blood sugar readings were already in the 130-140 mg/dl range. I reported these readings to our family physician and he told to continue doing my exercise routine. Long story short, I still run the stairs but only for 1 hour per day now.

What have I been eating? High carbohydrate meals. My high carb foods must be natural, fresh (raw or cooked), heart-healthy, unprocessed, and whole. It is very true that carbohydrates are notorious for creating high fasting and post-meal blood sugar levels. Fortunately, these consistent high blood sugar levels have not harmed me yet. Why? Maybe because my daily exercise has made them short-lived and temporary.

I avoid sugary, fatty, and salty foods. No snacks and no hard and soft drinks. I drink only water

I think that I am the first non-medicated 25-year type 2 diabetic with no diabetes complications. In 20 years, I hope to be the first non-medicated 100-year old type 2 diabetic with no diabetes complications.

Bonny C Damocles
Male, 80 years old, 137 lbs., 5'7"
Past A1cs: 5.2% - 6.3%
Control Method: D&E for 25+ years - only 2 meals/day + 4 exercise sessions (1 hour/day total)
Not taking any pharma drug for any health problem

 

[Remedy]

I commend you.
I do have a question. Were you 'ever' a carb addicted eater? Did you eat yourself silly with baked goods, chips, and fatty cold cuts?

I guess that was more than one question.
It's wonderful that you're able to refrain from eating sugary and fatty foods. Many of us find that really difficult to do but I'm learning it's definitely about priorities.

I am on medication for Type 2 but sure would be happy to do it your way.

 

[Craigh270779]

Low Carb High Fat and fasting has done it for me. Don't worry about calories and rarely hungry.
Regards
Mark

I've always worried about the calorie intake part of lchf, I'm trying not to but at times I feel as though I may not be eating enough

 

[Brunneria]

It appears that the extreme calorie restricted diet has the most encouraging results.

I disagree.
Until someone manages to get a huge group of people who are committed to lose identical amounts of weight, some of them in a short time through extreme calorie restriction, and some through a long time through other methods, with a long term followup then it is very misleading to make statements like this.

I agree that the VLC diets are showing the promise of 'reversal' in the short term. That is good.
But we don't yet have the evidence to claim they are 'better' than other forms of weightloss for reversal - because the comparisons have not been done properly (same amounts of weight, and % chance of reversal, with time as the variable)

Nor can we claim that this 'reversal' is long term, or the numbers involved, until Professor Taylor of the Newcastle Diet comes out with his full data on the 5 year study of his ND followup.

I recently saw a You Tube video by Michael Moseley in which he stated that 'rapid weight loss' has been shown to be marginally more effective in keeping the weight off in the long term (I am paraphrasing), but he was very careful to state that this wasn't necessarily the result of the type of diet. Instead, he suggested that it was because the determination and enthusiasm of the dieter was key, and that was more likely with a VLC because of the intensity of effort. So it isn't the diet, it is the mental attitude of the dieter.

In addition, everyone seems to be so blinded by the prospect of shaving a few pounds off in the short term, and achieving this 'reversal' ideal, that they carefully ignore the downsides to VLC eating, which in the long term can lower basal metabolic rate, reduce muscle mass, and if regain happens, the weight regained is likely to be fat not muscle - unless deliberate steps are taken after the weight loss, to introduce and maintain dietary and exercise regimes. These things are never mentioned when the 'Reversal Carrot' is dangled.

 

[Brunneria]

I commend you.
I do have a question. Were you 'ever' a carb addicted eater? Did you eat yourself silly with baked goods, chips, and fatty cold cuts?

I guess that was more than one question.
It's wonderful that you're able to refrain from eating sugary and fatty foods. Many of us find that really difficult to do but I'm learning it's definitely about priorities.

I am on medication for Type 2 but sure would be happy to do it your way.

I have had periods of severe carb addiction and food craving - to the point that I thought I had an eating disorder.

The only way of eating that has ever kept the cravings at bay is by going very low carb - basically the diet described on the www.dietdoctor.com website. It seems to work because it lowers the carb intake below the level that triggers my carb cravings. Works like a charm.

Now I know that my carb cravings were nothing to do with an eating disorder and all to do with chemical cravings.
Not saying that is the case for everyone, but I am not the only person who has this experience - we have had a number of posters on this forum saying exactly the same thing.

 

[bulkbiker]

I've always worried about the calorie intake part of lchf, I'm trying not to but at times I feel as though I may not be eating enough

Why? do you feel hungry? I haven't eaten anything for 6 days not really hungry though..

 

[chalup]

Most (not all) of the people that come roaring through here and achieve huge results in a very short amount of time seem to be relative newcomers to diabetes. I achieved those fast, great results when I was first diagnosed 11 years ago through diet and exercise and was declared non-diabetic by my doctor. He was wrong. @nemiabonny , what happens if and when you can't run up those stairs any more? Things change and other health issues can come into play that make it vastly more difficult to control the D. It is great if someone can get things under control quickly and efficiently and I applaud those that can, but it is irritating to listen to people go on about how everyone should be able to do it as easily. Those of us that cannot find control easily, or need medication to help with control are not somehow less motivated or less well informed. We are all different and we all have a different experience in our health and our lives. I wish you all the best and I am doing my best.

 

[Keesha]

Extreme calorie restriction probably works for people who want to lose weight and at the same time improve blood glucose level, but unfortunately it does not work for thin people who cannot afford to lose weight. Increase calorie intake will most certainly increase blood glucose so skinny people have a harder time controlling their blood sugar. Am I making any sense?

 

[Keesha]

Bulkbiker, you said you had not eaten in six days and do not feel hunger. How do you manage that? Have you lost your appetite? I would be starving if I miss lunch or not take breakfast. I really need three main meals and perhaps a snack to get me through the day. Diabetics are not suppose to go for periods without food unless you are sleeping.

 

[Brunneria]

Increase calorie intake will most certainly increase blood glucose so skinny people have a harder time controlling their blood sugar.

That depends entirely on what kind of foods are used to provide the increased calories. If those calories are fat, then the blood glucose impact will be minimal or miniscule.

 

[bulkbiker]

Bulkbiker, you said you had not eaten in six days and do not feel hunger. How do you manage that? Have you lost your appetite? I would be starving if I miss lunch or not take breakfast. I really need three main meals and perhaps a snack to get me through the day. Diabetics are not suppose to go for periods without food unless you are sleeping.

I have been following an ultra low carb diet for the past 10 months and am pretty well fat adapted. I try to be in a ketogenic state for as long as possible although I have only just started to measure this. After reading and listening to lot of Dr Jason Fung's work (which seems to me to make the most sense of all) I started fasting for extended periods.
From my diagnosis I gave up breakfast so immediately was fasting for 16-17 hours a day I then extended this to 40 hours then 3 days then 5 days and tonight will break my first 7 day fast.
Because my body is running on fat most of the time then I don't get any carb withdrawal symptoms so don't get the extremes of hunger. I have also started to have a pseudo bullet proof coffee everyday around lunchtime 11-1 pm 2 tablespoons of coconut oil in a latte made with cream and water with 3 coffee shots. This keeps you feeling satiated for a long time.
Who told you that we are not supposed to go without food except when sleeping? They were obviously incorrect in my case.

 

[Bebo321]

Do you have Type 2 @Bebo321 or are you asking out of interest for a family member or friend?

Hi there,
Apologies for the delay!
I don't have diabetes, but my husband was diagnosed T1 just four years ago. He's been on a journey to learn as much as he can and share info with others. I too have taken a real interest - probably more so in T2. It appears an unrelenting disease that carries with it a stigma which I believe is wholly unfair.
There has been a lot of coverage in the media about T2 reversal with diet and I know certain individuals who claim to have 'cured' the condition. I am curious how true this is however and wonder how realistic an ambition it is for all living with the condition.
I guess I'm trying to work out if there is a realistic choice:
1) Manage diabetes well through diet and exercise and possibly meds - so keep the status quo
2) Lose xxkilos of weight and be sure that you can come off all meds, eat occasional carbs without worrying and have BGs within a normal range at all times.
So is option 2 a reality or just a pipe dream?

 

[azure]

Hi @Bebo321

Thank you for explaining your motivation I think it depends on the person, with regard to your options above. Some Type 2s are slim and don't have any weight to lose, which, of course is another reason to reject the stereotyping of Type 2s.

I also think it's important to emphasise that needing medicatikn isn't a failure or due to a lack of application by the person with Type 2.

Bottom line - we're all different

There's ignorance about diabetes everywhere - all types sadly.

 

[Bebo321]

I disagree.
Until someone manages to get a huge group of people who are committed to lose identical amounts of weight, some of them in a short time through extreme calorie restriction, and some through a long time through other methods, with a long term followup then it is very misleading to make statements like this.

I agree that the VLC diets are showing the promise of 'reversal' in the short term. That is good.
But we don't yet have the evidence to claim they are 'better' than other forms of weightloss for reversal - because the comparisons have not been done properly (same amounts of weight, and % chance of reversal, with time as the variable)

Nor can we claim that this 'reversal' is long term, or the numbers involved, until Professor Taylor of the Newcastle Diet comes out with his full data on the 5 year study of his ND followup.

I recently saw a You Tube video by Michael Moseley in which he stated that 'rapid weight loss' has been shown to be marginally more effective in keeping the weight off in the long term (I am paraphrasing), but he was very careful to state that this wasn't necessarily the result of the type of diet. Instead, he suggested that it was because the determination and enthusiasm of the dieter was key, and that was more likely with a VLC because of the intensity of effort. So it isn't the diet, it is the mental attitude of the dieter.

In addition, everyone seems to be so blinded by the prospect of shaving a few pounds off in the short term, and achieving this 'reversal' ideal, that they carefully ignore the downsides to VLC eating, which in the long term can lower basal metabolic rate, reduce muscle mass, and if regain happens, the weight regained is likely to be fat not muscle - unless deliberate steps are taken after the weight loss, to introduce and maintain dietary and exercise regimes. These things are never mentioned when the 'Reversal Carrot' is dangled.

Hi there,
I was interested to watch the film below (apologies if you watched it too). I find it interesting that (according to the evidence provided in the clip) there is an observable difference in the slowdown of metabolic rate between those who 'diet' vs fast. That is, when fasting the body's metabolic rate doesn't decline - in fact it increases (at least initially)
What are your thoughts?

Regarding the very low calorie (let's face it pretty much fasting diet) - I wonder if preferable results are evidenced by the twin cycle hypothesis? (I've attached the Counterpoint study - p271 has the info)
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/documents/BantingDiabeticMed.pdf

Basically, observations suggest that a fast (mimicking bariatric surgery) puts the liver into overdrive - in that it is constantly fuelling the body (so there is a negative energy balance). After 7 days, fat loss from the liver constitutes 30% of overall weight loss and insulin sensitivity is normalised. (You'd probably be ready to keel over too!)

With regards to a diet's effectiveness at improving BGs/insulin resistance (either by maintaining a low calorie/carb approach or by making a more drastic cut in calories), I wonder if perhaps there is something about a constant negative energy balance that helps 'reset' the liver? I am guessing that the key is to clear fat from the liver. When we 'diet', our body burns fat, but I am not sure if is is as successful at clearing visceral fat.
(I think I need to do more reading!)

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

The first thing you would need to define is what you mean by "Reversed". There are countless threads debating that subject on here as well.

I have a HbA1c of 22 and BG levels that are nearly always in the recommended ranges, all through Diet & Exercise, but then I don't consider that as a Reversal.

@britishpub could you fill us in on your height too? Thanks.,.