Reversing Type 2 Diabetes

[russth]

Hello all. I'm new to the forums. I posted something yesterday in the pre-diabetes section about my personal experience in reversing my insulin resistance. I just wanted to make a point here about reversing Type 2 full Diabetes, which I realise may be controversial on this forum, but nevertheless in the spirit of promoting debate here goes. For those who don't want to read my long other post, I have been lucky enough to receive extremeIy good professional advice from a specialist treatment centre in Europe which I won't name here, which has resulted in me reversing my insulin resistance. That advice I would consider relatively cutting edge, and I wanted to share the part of it that applies to Type 2 here. Many people consider type 2 diabetes a disease for life. It is possible to reverse your blood sugar levels, but nevertheless the disease is still there. The argument is that how glucose enters your cells is permanently affected and while lifestyle changes can reduce blood sugar levels, the damage to your cells is always there, and you have to be careful for life. So the term "reversing" is misleading when applied to Type 2. In addition over time people experience beta cell damage and lose insulin producing cells, so the problem steadily gets worse i.e. type 2 is progressive. With strong lifestyle management blood sugar counts can be controlled, but just because you have low blood sugar counts doesn't mean that you don't have diabetes, as if you relax then it comes back. This is still a valid argument. But it can now be legitimately questioned, and recent research is opening doors on this disease, which could revolutionise treatment. For starters certain types of exercise for example (High Intensity Training for one) not only helps control blood sugar by speeding up how quickly glucose enters your cells, but researchers are beginning to believe that it may be actively changing how your cells process glucose, speeding up the process at the cellular level permanently. That would be proper reversal. Regarding the dreaded beta cell destruction, researchers believe that by changing the signalling process as to how this process happens not only will it be possible to prevent existing beta cells from being damaged, but that existing damage could be reversed. In addition research on islet cells is finding ways of producing more insulin in existing cells using something called GPR55. This is actually being done now, and is at the cellular level. It is research that is not aimed at suppressing glucose production of the liver like metmorfin, and could lead to proper reversal. This post is not an excuse to tell people to relax on lifestyle changes to control blood sugar. My Doctor made it absolutely clear that this is absolutely vital but from my recent interactions with some of these people that are fighting diabetes that I strongly believe that we are getting closer to saying diabetes is genuinely not progressive, and in fact is probably going to be properly reversible. I just thought people would find this interesting. I'm just passing on what seemed to me to be a quite upbeat prognosis on type 2 diabetes treatment in the future. Most of you will know much more about Type 2 than I ever will, and you are living with the disease daily, but food for thought.

 

[didie]

I've got my levels back to non-diabetic levels with diet and exercise and am on no medication. This was done within months of developing diabetes, but I would never consider that I've reversed my diabetes. I am sure that if I or anyone else who has done the same by similiar or other means such as the high intensity exercise or the Newcastle diet went back to our old lifestyles then the symptoms would reappear.

I prefer to consider my diabetes as being in remission and have no intention of relaxing my guard.

 

[shyster]

Hi Russth,
I'm really interested in what you are doing. I'm also trying HIT, I've found that it is very good in maintaining a lower blood glucose level. I recently spent 1 week with no training and saw my levels steadily rise. As i cycle 3 miles to work each day, I try to include 3, 30 second HITS each way. I have my Hba1c blood test this week so will let you know how I've done since I started 3 months ago, although i must stress that I haven't been very strict with my training I will sometimes miss 3 or days at a time when I feel lethargic or can't be bothered cause it's all too much like hard work.
Can you tell me what your excercise program is?
Thanks
Shyster

 

[the east man]

I agree dide. I work very hard on my diabetis, and am controlling it by diet and the high intensity excerise programme. Sometimes I must admit after a week or 2 of very good results I start to believe that Ive beat it, but just a few days of not keeping to my programme I will see my BG levels rising. Ive come to accept that I will have this disease for ever, but I don't believe this disease is progressive, and as long as I keep to my plan, as you say, I can keep it in remission.

 

[shyster]

Hi east man,
can you tell me what your excercise regime is and what do you do for High Intensity training and how often? I really think this is the best way forward for me, and would like to hear other peoples experiences.
thanks
Shyster

 

[the east man]

Hi Russth,
I'm really interested in what you are doing. I'm also trying HIT, I've found that it is very good in maintaining a lower blood glucose level. I recently spent 1 week with no training and saw my levels steadily rise. As i cycle 3 miles to work each day, I try to include 3, 30 second HITS each way. I have my Hba1c blood test this week so will let you know how I've done since I started 3 months ago, although i must stress that I haven't been very strict with my training I will sometimes miss 3 or days at a time when I feel lethargic or can't be bothered cause it's all too much like hard work.
Can you tell me what your excercise program is?
Thanks
Shyster

It mightened suit everyone Shyster, but this is my excercise programme.
Running machine: walk for 30mins at 3.8 MPH, after 4mins I increase my speed to 9mph and run for 1 minute, then I reduce it back down to 3.8mph and walk for another 4mins, then I increase it again to 9mph and run for 1 minute, again, I reduce my speed to 3.8mph and walk for another 4 mins. When I get to 14mins, increase my speed to 9.5mph, again run for 1 minute and reduce it again. After 19mins I increase it to 10mph and run for 1 minute, then back down to walking speed until 24mins then my speed increases to 10.5mph for 1minute, back down to walking speed until the 29th minute where I increase it to 11mph for the last minute. After the running machine I use the spin bike, set the ressitinance at pretty high. I do a 30sec sprint as fast as I can, get off do a 12 rep bench press, back on the spin bike for another 30 sec sprint, back to the bench press, and finally another 30 sec sprint and another 12 rep bench press. I then finish up doing a variety of weight machines. I do this on a Monday Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday. On Tuesday I do 10 lengths of the swiming pool and relax in the jacuzi for 15 mins. Friday and Sundays I dont do anything. I would love to hear other peoples training programmes.
Obvisouly everyone is different, and can increase or decrease the speeds, times etc to what suits their ability

 

[Grazer]

Agree with Eastman and Didie. Most of the time, through careful exercise and diet, I manage my BGs to non-diabetic levels. If I went for a diagnosis now, with either fasting BGs or HbA1c, I would be diagnosed as non-diabetic. But I am NOT non-diabetic. I am not cured, and never will be until the magic pill comes along - and it's not here yet. It is, in my view, perfectly viable that a pre-diabetic who has elevated BGs only because of insulin resistance, particularly if that comes from being overweight, could reduce/remove that resistance and become effectively "cured", but that does NOT apply to a T2 who has a limited ability to produce insulin, with the important phase one release normally being the first impaired. We can manage our diabetes to "normal" levels, but change the diet and just see what happens. As much as I'm pleased for you russth, your boiled potatos, unless they were a couple of new potatos, would be a no-no for most of us. In fact the roast pots you said were out are in fact better for us, as the fat slows the absorption and thus the production of glucose, giving our slow phase two response a chance to catch up. So, different ball game I'm afraid, although some of the rules are the same - reduce the carbs, avoid the starchy carbs and lose weight if you're overweight (lots of us aren't)

 

[Unbeliever]

Great post Grazer. Not just as a reply to Russh but very clearly and succinctly put for those who are just over the first shock of diagnosis and want to know more . :clap:

 

[russth]

Hi Shyster.
The advice I was given was that any HIT training will help but that HIT can be split into HIT cardio and HIT strength. HIT cardio is 20 seconds full on a bike as hard as you can then rest for 1 minute and repeat a few times. Or Sprint full on for 10 seconds. Walk back and repeat 10 times. Finish with a 20 second sprint. Believe me its tough but over quickly. However, where it seems that the "reversal" may be happening is with HIT Strength training, where the way cells process glucose may actually alter permanently. HIT strength is circuit training with weights, or metabolic circuits. I do a short circuit for 20 minutes with kettle bells, medicine balls and a TRX. Do that 3 times a week. You must eat protein within 20 minutes of finishing. Must stress this is all recent research and nothing is definitevly proven, but it is certainly going to improve your health either way as you will get EPOC anyway, which is a raised metabolic rate for 48 hours afterwards anyway. Exercise, even HIT strength is not going to reverse T2 anyway. It may speed up the processing of glucose, but it wont help with the Beta cell destruction. Point of my original post is that research is getting closer to solving that issue. Not there yet though.Hope that helps.

 

[russth]

Hi Grazer. Think you are mixing up my posts. The original was put in the pre-diabetes section as I'm not suggesting that exercise and diet etc can reverse T2. I certainly dont want to imply that. My point was that research is getting closer to producing the "magic pill" that you mentioned. And that the type of exercise you do can have some permanent affects on how your cells process glucose. I firmly believe T2 will be reversable in the next few years. All the stuff about diet and boiled potatoes (yes I meant new potatoes) was aimed at pre-diabetics. I'm merely passing on the information I was given on the current state of play of current research. Sincerely good luck with all of your ongoing battles with this disease.

 

[borofergie]

I've often wondered about this. Is T2 diabetes only a problem of insulin insensitivity or is it a combination of panreatic exhaustion and insulin resistance? How do I know for sure that my pancreas is worn out? If it's not, why can't I reduce my insulin resistance by losing more body fat and increasing my lean body tissue?

My intention is to reverse my diabetes altogether. I don't know if it's possible, but it's a goal worth aiming for. Although in some ways it's academic, I'd like to add some starches to my diet but I'd never go back to a "healthy balanced diet", because now I know that it's not healthy.

Give me another couple of years and I'll show you.

 

[xyzzy]

How do I know for sure that my pancreas is worn out?

Stephen a c-peptide test will tell you that http://labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/c-peptide/tab/test although as a T2 with a sub 5% hBA1c I expect your gp will be very reluctant to pay for the test!

I wanted to know that same information myself as if as a T2 the majority of my problem was insulin resistance it would be a great incentive to say do the Newcastle Diet and loads of exercise as you would de fat your pancreas very effectively and end up nearly fully functional as members such as Youngmanfrank have done.

A low carb or VLC approach where you lose weight should achieve the same thing in the end but would just take longer. Certainly I have seen improvements in carb munching capability but even though I'm now in the normal weight range its not been enough for me to believe I've reversed or will end up reversing my T2.

 

[borofergie]

Stephen a c-peptide test will tell you that http://labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/c-peptide/tab/test although as a T2 with a sub 5% hBA1c I expect your gp will be very reluctant to pay for the test!

I don't know why you have to be referred for this type of thing. I'd happily pay for my own, and interpret my own results (which I could do much better than the vast majority of Doctors). I don't want to have to pay for a private consultation in order to get one. I wish I lived in America.

I wanted to know that same information myself as if as a T2 the majority of my problem was insulin resistance it would be a great incentive to say do the Newcastle Diet and loads of exercise as you would de fat your pancreas very effectively and end up nearly fully functional as members such as Youngmanfrank have done.

A low carb or VLC approach where you lose weight should achieve the same thing in the end but would just take longer. Certainly I have seen improvements in carb munching capability but even though I'm now in the normal weight range its not been enough for me to believe I've reversed or will end up reversing my T2.

I have an advantage because I started at a higher weight that you. I've lost 60lbs (more than that in fat, because I've added a lot of muscle mass) and I intend to lose at least another 40lbs before I get to my "marathon runner" physique. Even with a damaged pancreas there must be a whole lot of insulin resistance tied up in 100lbs+ of flab.

The other thing is, that on <20g a day, I don't ever really spike, so I'm giving my pancreas a good rest. Who is to say that if I keep my HbA1c <5% there won't be some recovery in function.

It's probably cloud-cuckoo, but it's a convenient lie that suits my purpose.

 

[xyzzy]

I'd happily pay for my own, and interpret my own results

£200 from here http://www.medichecks.com/index.cfm...me=C Peptide&gclid=CLvph7SwqrACFUYntAodMyyjVw

I think you should think VERY carefully about the psychological impact having the test done could do. If it came back and said you had little beta cell function remaining then unless someone finds a miracle cure you would need to accept your reversal hopes would be dashed. Further that even on your VLC regime that has in all likelihood stopped progression that if that progression is continuing however slowly then at some point your levels will rise assuming nothing else gets you first. I would suggest like most things of a similar nature such as an alzheimer test it is a thing you do after the most careful consideration.

 

[Unbeliever]

Just as a general point I totally agree xyzzy. I am not presuming to comment on Borofergie's situation.

his pont often comes to mind when I hear DUK for example, Pushing their 9 or 15 tests oe whatever. I understand that they are campaigning for the future but i often read posts on here panicking because hey don't have certain ests or are not offered immediate follow -up treatment etc. when in effect, it is going to make very little difference. o the individual..

There is a perception that diagnosis is always followed by treatment and cure. Medication is expected to produce immediate results
the same results for everyone and without side effects because we all lead such busy lives and that is what we are led to believe is the norm.

That is one of the reasons why a diabetes diagnosis comes as such a shock I think . For many of us it is difficult to accept that after leading what we were told was a healthy lifestyle we now have a chronic condition which is incurable and in spite of our best effforts may lead to unpleasant and dangerous complications.

Of course we are all aware that much of what we are undergoing now will be of use to future generations- we are all guinea pigs and I am sure it is of some comfort to know that even if treatments are ineffective for us we are assisting in the development of better treatment in the future.

Having said that we are entitled to consider our ownwell being too. Personally , I don' want further esting for conditions which can't be cured force upon me. he psychological aspect you mention is all-important. I already feel that I am just a puppet because of his disease and that others now conro,l my life to a grea extent.

The thing is that we do not know what the future will bring. I will continue with my eye treatment , which is in effect , tantamount to puting an elastoplast on the condtionn in the hope that more effecive reatment will be found and others should , as you say consider carefully the effect of any diagnosic tests.

It can be a difficul decision and is very individual. Information as a useful tool or as a cause of depression and de-motivation.?

 

[Unbeliever]

Just as a general point I totally agree xyzzy. I am not presuming to comment on Borofergie's situation.

his pont often comes to mind when I hear DUK for example, Pushing their 9 or 15 tests oe whatever. I understand that they are campaigning for the future but i often read posts on here panicking because hey don't have certain ests or are not offered immediate follow -up treatment etc. when in effect, it is going to make very little difference. o the individual..

There is a perception that diagnosis is always followed by treatment and cure. Medication is expected to produce immediate results
the same results for everyone and without side effects because we all lead such busy lives and that is what we are led to believe is the norm.

That is one of the reasons why a diabetes diagnosis comes as such a shock I think . For many of us it is difficult to accept that after leading what we were told was a healthy lifestyle we now have a chronic condition which is incurable and in spite of our best effforts may lead to unpleasant and dangerous complications.

Of course we are all aware that much of what we are undergoing now will be of use to future generations- we are all guinea pigs and I am sure it is of some comfort to know that even if treatments are ineffective for us we are assisting in the development of better treatment in the future.

Having said that we are entitled to consider our ownwell being too. Personally , I don' want further esting for conditions which can't be cured force upon me. he psychological aspect you mention is all-important. I already feel that I am just a puppet because of his disease and that others now conro,l my life to a grea extent.

The thing is that we do not know what the future will bring. I will continue with my eye treatment , which is in effect , tantamount to puting an elastoplast on the condtionn in the hope that more effecive reatment will be found and others should , as you say consider carefully the effect of any diagnosic tests.

It can be a difficul decision and is very individual. Information as a useful tool or as a cause of depression and de-motivation.?

 

[lucylocket61]

This thread has been interesting and informative. It has raised a question for me though (doesnt it always)

Have there been any studies to show that pre-diabetics do actually reverse their diabetes permanently?

Or studies showing that losing weight removes the threat of diabetes?

Also, as I understand it, the difference between a diagnosis of pre-diabetes and full Diabetes is just an arbitrary figure the health system has decided to use as a cut off point. So I am interested to know how many pre-diabetics stop being pre-diabetic and never go on to become diabetics ever.

I suspect that most of them eventually become diabetic. In which case, we are all delaying the progression of this disease, but no amount of changes will ultimately alter the basic problem of our pancreas gradually reducing its function.

 

[Grazer]

I suspect that most of them eventually become diabetic. In which case, we are all delaying the progression of this disease, but no amount of changes will ultimately alter the basic problem of our pancreas gradually reducing its function.

I suspect you're probably right.A friend of mine was diagnosed pre-diabetic many years ago (borderline diabetic in those days)
He changed his diet drastically, lost weight, and became far more active. He apparently went back to being non diabetic. He maintained his life style, and still does, but has regular checks (lives in france) and his test results are steadily rising each test now. He is probably back to pre-diabetic again now, despite the diet and hard exercise through work he does. My guess is he'll progress to diabetic at some stage.

 

[Defren]

I don't believe you can cure, or even reverse diabetes - sorry. I am at the end of week 6 of the Newcastle diet. I usually have FBG in the 4's and +2 after a meal I only ever get to middle 5's, never higher. My 7 day BG average is 4.9 as is my 14 day average, and my 30 day average is 5.0.

I did the ND to give my pancreas a chance, to loose visceral fat around my organs, and to loose weight, all to give my body a real fighting chance. In that respect it has worked. I am under no illusion that if I were to revert back to old eating habits, all my hard work would be down the drain. While my body does cope much better these days, with lower readings, I know I will have to keep a tight eating and exercise regime in place for life.

Yesterday I made an almond cake and some home made bread, breaking my diet (first ever major cheat) I had a slice of cake and a tiny, tiny slice of bread (both were low carb). I tested +2 hours and got a reading of 4.3. I know I would never have got a reading like that before the ND, and I also know if I loosened up control of either diet or exercise I would lose these figures. I am now (almost) at a healthy BMI and am again slim(ish). It took a lot of work, and there is no way I would risk that on any kind of maybe or possibly. I accept I am diabetic for life, and will continue to do what I have been to keep me well below non diabetic numbers.

 

[borofergie]

I'd happily pay for my own, and interpret my own results

£200 from here http://www.medichecks.com/index.cfm...me=C Peptide&gclid=CLvph7SwqrACFUYntAodMyyjVw

I think you should think VERY carefully about the psychological impact having the test done could do. If it came back and said you had little beta cell function remaining then unless someone finds a miracle cure you would need to accept your reversal hopes would be dashed. Further that even on your VLC regime that has in all likelihood stopped progression that if that progression is continuing however slowly then at some point your levels will rise assuming nothing else gets you first. I would suggest like most things of a similar nature such as an alzheimer test it is a thing you do after the most careful consideration.

I'm more robust than that. At this point in my diabetic journey I'm pretty disillusioned with a medical profession that fails to understand any of the things that I've done to address my condition. All I ever hear is "don't test", "eat more carbs", "ketones are bad for you", "your Total cholesterol is too high" (I haven't heard the last one yet, but I'm bracing myself for next week). I have next to zero confidence that my Doc could properly interpret a c-pep test, or if he did he'd do so with exactly the same resources as I do, but probably with less than half the enthusiasm.

Every step I've taken so far I've taken on my own, usually doing exactly the opposite of whatever the medical profession told me. That's just the kind of guy I am. If I hadn't taken responsibility for my diabetes, and blindly followed the advice I was given, I'd probably be washing down my low-fat diet with a glass of orange-juice and a hand full of statins and hoping that my next HbA1c would be "Good Enough!".

If I end up as a blind-amputee with kidney failure, at least I'll be able to console myself with the fact that I tried my best, did my own research and didn't blindly put my faith in a medical profession that frankly doesn't give a monkey's about me, or my diabetes.

It's kinda working out so far, don't you think?