borofergie
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xyzzy said:What about the issue I raised earlier? Is there data anywhere that shows how those people are achieving getting sub 7.5% hBA1c's (meds etc.) and how long survival rates are etc?.
Only if you die early and directly from a stroke or heart attack. Consider the amount of money spent on stents, heart bypasses and valve replacement . No stats here but as I mentioned some time ago I was shocked when I actually saw how many of the patients in the cardiac wards at a major NHS hospital were people with diabetes.Remember, if you live longer, you end up costing the Government more in pension. So there is often a financial incentive to get us to "kick the bucket" early
xyzzy said:Surely Sid this is why a statement like ...
The diet consists of meat, fish, shellfish, eggs, vegetables, legumes and vegetable proteins and fats from olive oil and butter. The diet includes less sugar, bread, cereals, potatoes, root vegetables and rice than a traditional diabetes diet.
...is so powerful as it allows YOU to quite happily interpret...
Sid Bonkers said:xyzzy said:The diet consists of meat, fish, shellfish, eggs, vegetables, legumes and vegetable proteins and fats from olive oil and butter. The diet includes less sugar, bread, cereals, potatoes, root vegetables and rice than a traditional diabetes diet.
...is so powerful as it allows YOU to quite happily interpret...
We're not far apart on this xyzzy the only part I would drop is the less and the than a traditional diabetes diet as I believe that the NHS diet as it was advised to me is fine, but as I've said here numerous times that information is open to interpretation despite what borofergie will say when he quotes his facts and figures about % of this and that, that seem compelling when read but bear no relation to the amounts an obese person should be eating in order to lose weight.
Sid Bonkers said:So back to portion control, I read here that vlc'ers can eat as much and as many calories as they want and they wont become fat, strange then the the much quoted Dr Bernstein talks in depth about only eating one or two cups :shock: of salad per meal, so who am I to believe? Dr Bernstein or those who say eat as much as you want as long as you dont eat too many carbs? Could this be the reason for numerous threads that start "weight loss stalled" or "LCing but still putting on weight". Just maybe the fat is good mantra sung by many LCers is not as true as some would have us believe, just a thought.
borofergie said:I'm not actually sure where weight loss comes into it. Obviously it would be nice if some of the obeses diabetics lost weight (and it would help with their control), but many diabetics don't need to lose any weight. This is a diet to help them get control, weight loss is incidental.
"Eat as many calories as they want" is exactly right. Eating more protein and fat increases saitety meaning that you eat until you are full and you don't need eat any more. It's about listening to your body's satiety signals instead of being influenced by blood sugar swings/ I can eat plenty of raw spinach on my Bernstein 30g a day of carbs - 850g to be precise - which is far more than I could stomach. I've lost over 60lbs on VLC so far and I'm still going strong...
But all this is besides the point. The "eat-to-your" meter mantra is about control and not about weight loss. No-one is prescribing any level of low-carb. Everyone needs to work out the level (and quality) of carbohydrate intake by iterative "eating to the meter". If you do that, I bet no-one ends up below 50g a day.
Sid Bonkers said:We're not far apart on this xyzzy the only part I would drop is the less and the than a traditional diabetes diet
Sid Bonkers said:as I believe that the NHS diet as it was advised to me is fine
Sid Bonkers said:@ Phoenix, thanks for those figures, so 60% of T2's are achieving the NICE recommendations thats a lot more than I was assuming and a pretty good statistic although we shouldnt forget the 40% who aren't but you can lead a horse to water and all that.
Sid Bonkers said:So back to portion control, I read here that vlc'ers can eat as much and as many calories as they want and they wont become fat, strange then the the much quoted Dr Bernstein talks in depth about only eating one or two cups :shock: of salad per meal, so who am I to believe? Dr Bernstein or those who say eat as much as you want as long as you dont eat too many carbs? Could this be the reason for numerous threads that start "weight loss stalled" or "LCing but still putting on weight". Just maybe the fat is good mantra sung by many LCers is not as true as some would have us believe, just a thought.
Sid Bonkers said:The main thing for any overweight diabetic is to lose that weight, that will then reduce the insulin resistance to a level were a more normal diet can be eaten and by more normal I dont mean the diet that made the person overweight in the first place I mean sustainable portions of every food group including carbs.
Once weight has been lost and insulin resistance is reduced the only thing left to affect bg levels is pancreatic function, some will have most of it in tact whilst others will have suffered considerable damage whilst their levels were high either prior to diagnosis or due to lack of motivation on their part and you dont have to read many threads on any diabetes forum to know that "I've been in denial" is a very common theme, I will add here misinterpretation of NHS diet recomendations either by the person or their HCP.
Now it is insulin resistance and pancreatic function (or lack of it) that will limit the amount of carbs someone can eat and stay at or below a given level, age, sex and some other health issues will play a part but it is mainly IR and PF. This is why I am against the statement "eat x number of carbs to start with" , I often read advice given to newly diagnosed here to "now say start with x amount and then adjust" yet now the mantra is eat to your meter. If I eat to my meter why would I want to start at a particular level of carbs, OK under 50g would probably be safe for everyone but only a very few can sustain that level for life but by eating to your meter and only eating the amounts of carbs you can safely eat many diabetics will find that their 'safe carb levels' will increase as weight loss is achieved.
Sid Bonkers said:we are all different (boring)
Sid Bonkers said:Which brings me nicely back to should obesity be classified as an eating disorder?
viviennem said:"please, talk to us - real diabetics - before you make any decisions that will affect our lives"
phoenix said:Only if you die early and directly from a stroke or heart attack. Consider the amount of money spent on stents, heart bypasses and valve replacement . No stats here but as I mentioned some time ago I was shocked when I actually saw how many of the patients in the cardiac wards at a major NHS hospital were people with diabetes.Remember, if you live longer, you end up costing the Government more in pension. So there is often a financial incentive to get us to "kick the bucket" early
"please, talk to us - real diabetics - before you make any decisions that will affect our lives"
lucylocket61 said:(sorry, been with the Mother-in-Law and come back feeling either murderous or despairing, or both. Either way I have had a day of being lectured on my sins and stupidity)
Unbeliever said:That is why I supported the OP so wheheartedly in his original idea of a simple handout leafle giving he newly diagnosed some simple but potentially life saving advice. If we go hat idea suggested -even if he leaflet was didtriuted with saer packs giving BAD adice the patients would be given at least an option o take the path which works for so many of ius.
It would not be up o us to arrnge for the printing and disribution. The handout could include nformation about this websie.
If reference to his website and acceptance of our ideas could even be recognised by the NHS -even alongside DUK then a very important barrier would be broken and a great advance made.
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