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Statins - good or bad - what does the research say?

Discussion in 'Diabetes Discussions' started by Indy51, Jan 1, 2016.

  1. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Guru

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    That is not what i said.
     
  2. Osidge

    Osidge Type 2 · Well-Known Member
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    This is what you said:

    ""Equally, some people do not know that the symptoms they experience are due to a drug they have been taking for months or years. Especially if the symptoms develop slowly over time.

    With statins, the well documented contraindications include muscle aches, raised blood glucose and increased risk of diabetes.

    Anyone who started statins prior to developing diabetes may have developed diabetes as a result of the statins. Or not. But it is illogical to claim that they couldn't have done, or that their condition may be psychosomatic.

    Doug
     
  3. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Guru

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    Exactly.
    Your paraphrasing of my comment implied i said something else.
     
  4. Mike d

    Mike d Type 2 · Expert

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    Who said that? You know full well i did not. ASCOT is NOT the only "resource" out there and I am not criticising research (money thrown at or on) the subject whether it be by the Anglo-Scandinavian Cardiac Outcomes Trial or any other group or any other opinion. Never have and never will. You'd agree there are many sites that speak for and against statins, would you not?

    So much conflicting information out there that it's be unwise to place your faith in the first site you come across, be it ASCOT or anywhere else. The poll we have represents over 200 opinions and that is enough for me. I made up my mind 12 months ago regarding this drug. Please respect that decision as much as I respect yours
     
  5. Osidge

    Osidge Type 2 · Well-Known Member
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    Where did I say that their condition may be psychosomatic? You paraphrased me and I brought it back to my original point.

    Doug
     
  6. Osidge

    Osidge Type 2 · Well-Known Member
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    I certainly respect your decision with regard to your usage of statins. I have said all along that it is a choice that people must make. That "A DCUK poll would tell me more about this than ANY other resource." is where you and I differ but thanks to you and all the participants on this thread for a lively discussion on what is an important topic - the prolonging of life.

    Doug
     
  7. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Guru

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    I did not paraphrase. I responded.
    But it appears that you have misunderstood my meaning.

    Not going to engage in some quote-on-quote discussion with you. I always think they look very silly, especially when the posts are all easily viewable, in black and white.
    - particularly when it is perfectly obvious that we are not going to reach agreement.
     
  8. Jaylee

    Jaylee Type 1 · Moderator
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    This sounds great.

    Just to clarify. You were diagnosed with the issues you mentioned in the response to me above. Prior to the statin trial in 98?
    Where there no other diatary or lifestyle changes than the use of statins..?
     
  9. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    I am sorry, Doug. You seem to put all your faith in a trial that does a double blind onitself, in that of the participants selected for LLA were also blindly randomised to receive very different hypertension therapy at the same time. The endpoint was how many suffered non-fatal CVD events. Now it is recognised that hypertension is associated with CVD events, and lowering BP is a way of reducing CVD risk in its own right. So which med or placebo is actually causing the measured results? The report does not mention this cross contamination or how it was minimised in the result. To claim 36% risk reduction solely from the statin is in my opinion a con, which is costing us taxpayers a small fortune, and causing untold pain on an unsuspecting public.. The results of ASCOT as published do not support their conclusion. Full Stop. Also where is the evidence that the monitoring continued for 6 years after the 5 years of the trial - is there an update report? And again who funded the extra monitoring, which would be extremely expensive.
     
  10. Jaylee

    Jaylee Type 1 · Moderator
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    To be fair..?! (Highlighted in blue.) You did infer...
    A little disappointing & unempathic regarding undermining those with differing experiences of side effects from statins from yourself. Or even those just wishing to make an informed impartial choice.. (Like me!?)

    I'm just trying to keep an open mind on this topic..
     
  11. robert72

    robert72 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    • Like Like x 2
  12. Osidge

    Osidge Type 2 · Well-Known Member
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    People do sometimes get the symptoms they expect. I tried to avoid the term psychosomatic as the placebo effect for side effects seemed to be better terminology. Similarly, if people feel better by taking dummy pills, the term psychosomatic is not used. That harsh terminology was brought in by B.
     
  13. Osidge

    Osidge Type 2 · Well-Known Member
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    At randomisation for the trial, my cholesterol and BP were raised and I, unknowingly, had diabetes. My diabetes was diagnosed by the study Professor (FBG 12.00). I was put on atorvastatin, ramipril and amlodipine and followed my usual diet minus sweets cakes and other obvious sources of sugar.
     
  14. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    thank you Robert. I have found the info that was missing in the first report, which is the deaths in service figures, on which the 36% claim is probably based. At the end of LLA, 3.6% of the Atorvastatin group died, and 3.9% of the placebo group. During the 6 year extension, it was 16.9% of the Atorvastatin group died, and 19.6% of the placebo group. The report does make it clear that a large number from each group swapped (i.e. stopped or started statin therapy) during the extended period, so the result is a bit muddied. However, it does seem to show a small benefit in terms of clog popping for the statin group after 11 years, but I would have thought 3% rather than 36%. Note: these are all-cause deaths I am listing here, the report does break it down into subgroups.
     
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  15. DavidGrahamJones

    DavidGrahamJones Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    OK forum members, who googled and thought they'd like to add to the poll with a made up answer. Let's look at the question again.

    If you have used statins, did you experience significant side effects from using them?

    I think the clue is in the word significant, you wouldn't have to Google anything to answer that question. I don't think that anyone who has had no side effects can appreciate what those of us who have, are really taking about. Your claim is rather difficult to quantify, unless some of those who answered yes and still have the energy to follow this thread, fess up and tell us whether they didn't answer accurately and used Google. Imaginative! I can't even imagine what sort of person answers a poll with a made up answer, I suppose there must be some nutters out there, just not on this forum. LOL
     
  16. ickihun

    ickihun Type 2 · Master

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    Shame poll costs wasted.
    If you no longer get prescribed statins because of Significant Side Affects then the proof is in the pudding. GP data is all computerised so collation wouldn't be too expensive. Permission permitting.
    After all why computerise in the first place?
    Medical notes hold the key not polls.
    My next point is How many patients pick up their free statins and never take them because of SSA.
    Mortality increases through knowledge. Not just medication.
     
  17. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    I have tried Statins on many occasions, and the result has always ended up with me having to drop them due to SSA. I am a guitarist who regularly performs in public, and the pain was becoming disabling and affecting my ability to play. When I am off statins, then this problem subsides. I can liken the pain I personlly suffered as being just like having had the TB vaccination where the arm seizes up and the so called pinprick from the large needle continues to hurt constantly whatever position one places the arm. The TB jab fadesnturally over time, but the statins have to be physically removed. It is not psychosomatic for me.

    in response to ickyhun, my GP's surgery has switched over to the new NHS computer monitoring system as described. The data extracted for analysis is apparently anonyomous, so if we do not opt out of the system, then our essential facts will be collated for further research without requiring any further 'permissiond' from us. However, for SSA to be collated then the GP needs to identify the reason why we stopped a statin as an SSA event. Currently my GP has no tickbox for this.
     
  18. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Guru

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    May be a good time to menton that people can submit their own drug contraindication report via this uk government website.
    https://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/

    Their doctor should do it, but due to time pressure, or lack of motivation, I think it often gets forgotten.
     
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  19. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    Thank you B for bringing this up to our attention. I have a session with my GP in a weeks time, during which I will be informing him that I have stopped taking all the statins I am prescribed for, and do not wish to try any other ones. I will try to remember to ask him about YellowCard and see if I can get his support. He did do a yellowcard when I had my strokes and had to come off Avandia / Actos.
     
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  20. Osidge

    Osidge Type 2 · Well-Known Member
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    It would be great if more people (or their GPs) would use the yellow card system. I am pleased that you are having a discussion with your GP soon. As I understand it, people with diabetes are at risk of strokes and those who have already had them are more at risk again. Perhaps you need to be referred for consultant care to reduce your risks.

    Take care

    Doug
     
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