Strong DP, High BGs and fasting (TRE)

[debs248]

I've read most of the threads about fasting and gained a number of insights, but not seen anything that answers a couple of questions specific to my circumstances.

I have a strong DP/FotF and high BGs all day. Typically my first reading after getting up is between 10-12 (can't test in bed), and it stays that high for hours, dropping gradually in the evening to 7.5-9.5. This is if I'm fasting (drinking only tea with a splash of skimmed milk). Usually if I eat something, after two hours my BG will be lower than the pre-meal reading.

So I'm torn between wanting to fast as long as possible, and eating early in order to drop BGs sooner. I'm not a breakfast eater so almost never fast less than 12 hours, but would like to fast 14:10 up to 20:4 as often as I can. I fasted 22 or 23 hours about once a month or so but it wasn't a planned fast, just the way the day went.

The advice I've read seems to be "don't worry about DP, your FBGs will come down in time" but that's from people starting the day at 7 or 8. I'm not comfortable having BGs in double figures for at least 10 hours every day.

At the moment I'm only on Metformin SR 2000mg per day, which I take in the evening/ bedtime when I remember, with food if possible but often without.

Not sure exactly what my question is, but I'm trying to decide whether I should eat soon after I get up or delay until I actually want to eat? There's usually a family meal around 8pm, most days I'd be quite comfortable waiting until then, but I don't know if I should.

 

[Lamont D]

The stupid answer is of course try....... If only for your own personal satisfaction.
Unfortunately as those with blood glucose dysregulation knows, we tend to eat too much and we have been brainwashed into eating at set meal times...., breakfast, lunch, dinner, supper and snacks inbetween......, but we don't have set times for most of them at all. We call breakfast our early morning first meal, then there could be second breakfast etc..
You should only eat when you are feeling hungry.
Not because everyone else does.
I went through a lot of experimentation, testing, tracking, and more.
You have to find what keeps your BG levels to lower your overall blood glucose to as close to normal levels as possible.
Which means finding a diet, that is tailored to you and how your body copes with the intolerance that we all have issues with. It's bloody hard, not to have your favourite foods all those healthy carbs that they insist are good for you etc.
Don't tell anyone, but they are definitely not healthy for me, maybe for you as well.
It is also about learning about your body, and what it likes. And mine likes being in normal levels. Which is really hard for me at the moment, but I'm battling.
Best wishes. Knowledge is key.

 

[Antje77]

Usually if I eat something, after two hours my BG will be lower than the pre-meal reading.

So I'm torn between wanting to fast as long as possible, and eating early in order to drop BGs sooner.

What is the exact reason you want to fast as long as possible?

It looks like it isn't helping your diabetes to fast in the morning so why would you?

I've heard from various of our T2 members who've seen the same thing that just eating a cube of cheese, a couple of peanuts or some Greek yoghurt stops the FOTF, and I'm puzzled by how fasting could be more beneficial than preventing BG from entering the teens.
Tagging @KennyA who I think has done some experimenting on this.

I'm cross posting as a T1, I don't like food first thing in the morning so I simply take some insulin before getting out of bed to conquer FOTF. For years I've been thinking I should try the food thing but I keep forgetting.

A theory is that our friendly livers want to help get us going for the day by giving us some glucose for energy in case there is no food available, and those livers have no clue we have diabetes so they don't know this isn't helpful at all.
Giving it some food, even very little, sends the message that all is well, no need to save us from hunger and it can stop adding glucose to our bloodstream.
I have no idea if this is how it works but I should think it worth a try unless you have reasons to want to fast in the morning outside of diabetes.

 

[ianf0ster]

I'm a T2 now in (diet controlled) remission for 5yrs. Back in the early weeks I had some DP, but was still eating breakfast because I was not yet 'fat adapted'. My breakfast of 2 boiled eggs stopped the DP in its tracks such that my post breakfast BG reading was always as low or lower than my pre-breakfast one.

Fortunately, my DP faded so that by the time I was 'fat adapted' my liver was no longer putting early morning glucose into my bloodstream, either because I was in ketosis and so using body fat at that time, or that my liver had realised that I didn't need a morning energy boost. Which meant that I was able to fast overnight until late afternoon without concern about DP raising my BG.

I did discuss DP on the forum with several people who could turn it off with just one egg, small piece of cheese or 'bulletproof coffee'.

 

[debs248]

The stupid answer is of course try....... If only for your own personal satisfaction.

Not stupid at all. I just need to decide what to try first.

I just don't want to spend much time trying things that aren't working for me. I'm fed up having such high BGs and not being free to eat, or not, as my body otherwise wants to.

Unfortunately as those with blood glucose dysregulation knows, we tend to eat too much and we have been brainwashed into eating at set meal times...., breakfast, lunch, dinner, supper and snacks inbetween......, but we don't have set times for most of them at all. We call breakfast our early morning first meal, then there could be second breakfast etc..
You should only eat when you are feeling hungry.
Not because everyone else does.

My problem is more the opposite, nobody else is eating when I get up, or if they are it's usually bread or noodles that I don't want to eat. I'd rather wait until the family meal later on that's more likely to be low-carb, but it may be that eating sooner will bring down my BGs.

I'm struggling to finish my meals these days, and very slowly losing weight, so I don't think overeating is currently a problem. I've never enjoyed eating breakfast even if I wake up hungry. It's not the sort of hunger that demands immediate feeding if that makes sense.

You have to find what keeps your BG levels to lower your overall blood glucose to as close to normal levels as possible.

Yes. I just feel pressure (from my own brain and body, not anyone else) to find a solution ASAP - I've already had 4 months at least of high BGs and it feels like a doomsday clock is ticking.

Best wishes. Knowledge is key.

Thank you.

What is the exact reason you want to fast as long as possible?

I don't have the energy to prepare or eat more than one meal and one snack per day. Not eating frees up energy for other activities. Plus it's supposed to be good for diabetes, weight loss and health in general.

It looks like it isn't helping your diabetes to fast in the morning so why would you?

Lack of energy, motivation and suitable food. Life is easier if I just drink tea instead of eating. Especially at this time of year it's hard to find things I can eat that keep well without refrigeration. Also I have trouble swallowing solid food until I've been awake for several hours. Nuts just cause choking and even cold meats can be problematic. It's less unpleasant to just drink liquids until my throat is ready.

I've heard from various of our T2 members who've seen the same thing that just eating a cube of cheese, a couple of peanuts or some Greek yoghurt stops the FOTF, and I'm puzzled by how fasting could be more beneficial than preventing BG from entering the teens.

It may not be, I'm trying to weigh up the relative benefits. First I need to find out if eating early does actually make a significant difference. I've not managed it enough times yet to be sure.

Doesn't help that my fingers won't give up blood without a long-drawn out exhausting fight, and the last nurse I spoke to said I don't need to test any more as I'm no longer taking Gliclazide, so I fully expect test strips and lancets to disappear from my repeat prescription at any time.

There's also the option of stopping eating earlier, but I find it difficult to sleep without a snack before bed, and I'm more relaxed and find it easier to swallow in the evenings.

Which meant that I was able to fast overnight until late afternoon without concern about DP raising my BG.

How long did it take before you "lost" the DP? At the moment I just don't think I could keep up the early eating for long enough to make a difference.

I did discuss DP on the forum with several people who could turn it off with just one egg, small piece of cheese or 'bulletproof coffee'.

Coffee's out, I've never been able to stand it. Might buy some Cheestrings - they're individually wrapped so even if they get warm overnight they should be ok to eat next day.

Life would be so much easier if we didn't have to eat. I love food, but actually eating it often enough for my diabetes management just seems impossibly exhausting at the moment.

 

[KennyA]

I've read most of the threads about fasting and gained a number of insights, but not seen anything that answers a couple of questions specific to my circumstances.

I have a strong DP/FotF and high BGs all day. Typically my first reading after getting up is between 10-12 (can't test in bed), and it stays that high for hours, dropping gradually in the evening to 7.5-9.5. This is if I'm fasting (drinking only tea with a splash of skimmed milk). Usually if I eat something, after two hours my BG will be lower than the pre-meal reading.

So I'm torn between wanting to fast as long as possible, and eating early in order to drop BGs sooner. I'm not a breakfast eater so almost never fast less than 12 hours, but would like to fast 14:10 up to 20:4 as often as I can. I fasted 22 or 23 hours about once a month or so but it wasn't a planned fast, just the way the day went.

The advice I've read seems to be "don't worry about DP, your FBGs will come down in time" but that's from people starting the day at 7 or 8. I'm not comfortable having BGs in double figures for at least 10 hours every day.

At the moment I'm only on Metformin SR 2000mg per day, which I take in the evening/ bedtime when I remember, with food if possible but often without.

Not sure exactly what my question is, but I'm trying to decide whether I should eat soon after I get up or delay until I actually want to eat? There's usually a family meal around 8pm, most days I'd be quite comfortable waiting until then, but I don't know if I should.

I think the first thing I need to say is that I don't deliberately fast - that is, I don't (eg) have a meal and then say to myself "won't eat again until 8pm tomorrow" or similar. My fasting is just not eating, because I don't want to.

Round about 2014ish I did try the 5:2 thing (for weightloss, I was still undiagnosed) which a) didn't work and b) left me feeling incredibly hungry in the fasting phase. I wasn't low-carbing and was "basing my (low fat) meals round starchy carbohydrates" as the official advice (still) recommends.

The contrast with not eating while cutting carbs out is night and day. No hunger, in particular, but normal BG and weightloss.

The Dawn Phenom - I noticed this first with fingerprick testing in my early days. I would routinely have my highest daily reading in the morning. It would then seem to fall all through the day. I hadn't at this point appreciated how much a role one's liver plays in setting BG levels, and thought it was all due to food. So I didn't understand what was going on in the mornings.

Using a CGM showed that my BG often drops to very low levels around 4am and then starts a slow and steady rise which will continue for some time. I once tested hourly throughout the morning from about 6am to see what would happen (no food) and BG was still rising slowly at 2pm, which is when I got bored and ate something. On the back of that, and after some discussion on the forums (can't recall when exactly) I did some observations - the main one was that on the few occasions when I did eat in the mornings, the liver-fuelled BG rise stopped. I fiddled around with what "eat" might mean and established that for my liver "eating something" meant as little as three almonds. So for me at least it's not the food quantity that seems to be important.

I stopped routinely testing in the mornings as a result. There's very little I can do directly about what my liver gets up to, and over the years it has accepted that I don't need to be at elevated BG levels. I do a week's morning testing once a year just as a check, and this year a morning reading was typically around 5.3 or so - my diary for August 2020 (eight months in on keto) shows morning readings as high fives and sixes at best.

 

[debs248]

I'm eating low-enough carb that my body would happily not eat until evening, but I'm worried about these double-figure BGs I get in the meantime. I'm not happy just ignoring my liver and not testing.

Looks like I will have to find a way of eating early until my liver gets the message - then I can follow @KennyA's more casual routine.