T2 or NAFLD? ...or, a funny thing happened on the way to the surgery

[Chris24Main]

Hmmn - tried to leave a link to the Congressional report - cannot do that and can't edit the sentence to make sense -

 

[HSSS]

I agree with all your points @HSSS , except for this one:

Many adult diagnosed T1's had GD long before getting diagnosed with T1.
Like reactive hypoglycaemia, it can be a precursor to both types of diabetes.

Interesting as I’d only ever heard of it raising type 2 risk.

I did dig a little and found this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7476985/ suggesting a small increased for up to a decade for type 1 but a life long more significant increase in risk for type 2. And this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6306539/ that I think says GD almost masks a diagnosis of t1 in the very early days of the GAD antibodies being present, before they cause overt type 1 to present. In other words it was going to happen to those people anyway regardless of GD. In any case it seems monitoring is essential after GD for any type of diabetes that may follow. Did you have anything more conclusive I could look at?

There’s nothing technically that prevent any diabetic having more than one type simultaneously too, including gestational, without one causing the other though. In fact isn’t it known as double diabetes when a type 1 has the same symptoms of type 2 alongside it? A type 2 that later in life becomes type 1 would likely be written off as a worsening type 2 as expected and no actual testing done to establish the truth of that or if autoimmune had also struck so I would guess many are missed this way around.

 

[Antje77]

Did you have anything more conclusive I could look at?

I'm sorry, nothing except many newly diagnosed people in T1/LADA groups on Facebook reporting they had GD long before developing diabetes.

 

[Sling12]

Totally understood - Do appreciate the clarification; I'm trying to be very mindful of my own need to ... I guess ... vigorously test and argue things that I'm coming to understand in general and how they pertain to my own situation, but at the same time be mindful that not everyone on this forum will have the same experiences or opinions, and that what may be cathartic to me might be challenging or dismissive to someone else.

I was surprised at how angry I felt writing that reply though - not at you by any means, but at the way we are set up to fail... and then be expected to feel meek and take our medicine...
Truly - thanks for the opportunity to go into that, it's why I'm here...
Best,
Chris

Really appreciate you're taking your time to detail this. I feel supported in the decision I have made to embark on this journey which is complicated by pain meds. Wish my dad would believe the truth of it but he is a hard and fast worshipper of the GP God. Takes honey on toast before bed to avoid hypos.
Sad but true. This thread is now my go2 for like minded individuals
Although do have to say that your dedication initially to lose weight when it took so long (before you discovered fasting) is incredible
Don't underestimate how incredible you are

 

[Chris24Main]

Many thanks for your words of support - means a lot.

For me, I have to confess that this thread is as much about selfishness on my part as anything else - I process and motivate myself by putting things down on paper, and doing that in public (so to speak) really helps to make sure I have a thought clear in my own head - you know, whether it's a correct thought or not is a totally different question - there have been several times in this thread that I've really been challenged on something I thought I understood, and it's forced me to re-evaluate, and as many times, I've been wrong.

I've quickly come to realise though, that this kind of corner of the internet is full of positive, supportive people who are willing to challenge their own assumptions - really the opposite of most of the rest of the internet....

It shouldn't be too much of a surprise, these kind of forums self select for people who want to take a positive step during a difficult time... bound to generally be good people.

But being able to think through, change and construct a better understanding of the things that really matter - I`ve found that invaluable, and would like to take the opportunity to thank everyone who has taken part in any form; and to the mods and other users who have no interest in my generally unworthy story... This has been and continues to be truly life-changing for me...

 

[Chris24Main]

Quick thought -

Does anyone - having spent some time thinking about metabolism, perhaps read a book or two, watched a YouTube video, learned a little about the way we have all been sold the low-fat diet with very little science backing it up - have any problem communicating that with loved ones?

I'm speaking more generally here... because I have decided it's critical to my own health - I've been on a journey of discovery and learning - I have had my mind blown every day since the start of Feb, discovering things that overturn 'facts' I've held to be self-evident since childhood. It has affected everything I eat, my underlying mindset about cooking and ... well, living generally.

But - despite my Wife and Daughter supporting me doing what seems like the right thing for me to do... they are quite happy with their high-carb diet, thank you very much, and it's gotten to the point of me having to seriously watch what I say, because I can see that they are totally fed up with me banging on about sugar.

As it happens, I tend to do most of the cooking; so I can prepare things in a way that really works for all of us - I cook the things that they want, I have a tiny portion of the same, but I also cook a fabulous portion of stir fried veg, (Broccoli, sprouts and Courgettes last night, with loads of Butter, chilli, and chicken stock, with Creme Fraiche to finish) - it's not that it causes a problem - it's more; when they are having their bowl of cereal with skimmed milk in the morning - I'm like 'how can you eat that, when you know what it's doing to your liver?' - and the answer is of course that they don't - it's only a thing that happened to me, and they are free to make their own choices - and by the way, when I was my daughter's age, it was a bigger bowl of Rice Krispies I was having - and with a liberal sprinkling of sugar on top of that...

So, I'm learning to keep my mouth shut - but it's discouraging just how overwhelming the idea of 'fat is bad, carbs are good' is - even when you are living proof that at the very least, following that Guidance is not always a good idea..

And I still, myself, would struggle to buy and cook with Lard - it's just so ingrained in me that it's a bad thing to do (even though I know it's no different to the bacon that I had for my own breakfast)

 

[zand]

Yes, I have the same problem. The notion that dietary fat makes you fat is a strong one and I can see people don't believe that I increased fat (and calories) and lost weight. So I tend to keep quiet now.

I was clearing out a bookcase this week and found a book which I had purchased in the 1990s. It was called Foods That Cause You To Lose Weight and was supposed to help increase your metabolism. It was high carb, low fat. I found the diet difficult and it didn't work for me. This was around 20 years before T2 diagnosis.

It's hard to understand that dietary fat is good for you when the official advice differs. Why would the NHS mislead us? I don't think I would believe it if I hadn't stumbled on LCHF by accident and noticed that it worked.

 

[jpscloud]

Quick thought -

Does anyone - having spent some time thinking about metabolism, perhaps read a book or two, watched a YouTube video, learned a little about the way we have all been sold the low-fat diet with very little science backing it up - have any problem communicating that with loved ones?

I'm speaking more generally here... because I have decided it's critical to my own health - I've been on a journey of discovery and learning - I have had my mind blown every day since the start of Feb, discovering things that overturn 'facts' I've held to be self-evident since childhood. It has affected everything I eat, my underlying mindset about cooking and ... well, living generally.

But - despite my Wife and Daughter supporting me doing what seems like the right thing for me to do... they are quite happy with their high-carb diet, thank you very much, and it's gotten to the point of me having to seriously watch what I say, because I can see that they are totally fed up with me banging on about sugar.

As it happens, I tend to do most of the cooking; so I can prepare things in a way that really works for all of us - I cook the things that they want, I have a tiny portion of the same, but I also cook a fabulous portion of stir fried veg, (Broccoli, sprouts and Courgettes last night, with loads of Butter, chilli, and chicken stock, with Creme Fraiche to finish) - it's not that it causes a problem - it's more; when they are having their bowl of cereal with skimmed milk in the morning - I'm like 'how can you eat that, when you know what it's doing to your liver?' - and the answer is of course that they don't - it's only a thing that happened to me, and they are free to make their own choices - and by the way, when I was my daughter's age, it was a bigger bowl of Rice Krispies I was having - and with a liberal sprinkling of sugar on top of that...

So, I'm learning to keep my mouth shut - but it's discouraging just how overwhelming the idea of 'fat is bad, carbs are good' is - even when you are living proof that at the very least, following that Guidance is not always a good idea..

And I still, myself, would struggle to buy and cook with Lard - it's just so ingrained in me that it's a bad thing to do (even though I know it's no different to the bacon that I had for my own breakfast)

Yes, I do find it's difficult to communicate ideas counter to received and conventional wisdom - but my puzzled friends and relatives have seen the difference in me and one at least has actually followed up on some of the things I've suggested to read or watch but she still can't get over her fear of fat. I think the rest are waiting for me to have some sort of physical meltdown (done that already with carbs actually) so they can say "Told ya!"

Try beef tallow rather than lard, I'm a complete convert (went down the grass-fed rabbithole as well).

 

[jpscloud]

Yes, I have the same problem. The notion that dietary fat makes you fat is a strong one and I can see people don't believe that I increased fat (and calories) and lost weight. So I tend to keep quiet now.

I was clearing out a bookcase this week and found a book which I had purchased in the 1990s. It was called Foods That Cause You To Lose Weight and was supposed to help increase your metabolism. It was high carb, low fat. I found the diet difficult and it didn't work for me. This was around 20 years before T2 diagnosis.

It's hard to understand that dietary fat is good for you when the official advice differs. Why would the NHS mislead us? I don't think I would believe it if I hadn't stumbled on LCHF by accident and noticed that it worked.

I think it's assumed by the NHS that as a species we can't shake our addiction to sugar and starches, processed (and now ultraprocessed) foods. The individuals who can are anomalies and they are focused on wellness for the greater number. So if you tell people "Fat is good for you, eat fat!" you have to also tell them "Stop eating carbs of all sorts, cereals, breads, processed and ultraprocessed foods" and I don't think they are ready to do that yet. One day, hopefully.

 

[Outlier]

I think you should smile and just get on with what you know is right for you, and let the results speak for themselves. You can lead a horse to water etc.....

 

[Chris24Main]

I think you should smile and just get on with what you know is right for you, and let the results speak for themselves. You can lead a horse to water etc.....

I totally recognise that this is the only correct, sane answer - it's just hard - particularly when you are cooking the stuff - more curly fries?

 

[zand]

I think it's assumed by the NHS that as a species we can't shake our addiction to sugar and starches, processed (and now ultraprocessed) foods. The individuals who can are anomalies and they are focused on wellness for the greater number. So if you tell people "Fat is good for you, eat fat!" you have to also tell them "Stop eating carbs of all sorts, cereals, breads, processed and ultraprocessed foods" and I don't think they are ready to do that yet. One day, hopefully.

I agree. My husband wasn't ready to reduce carbs when he was diagnosed with fatty liver. He took alot of persuading. However the results after 5 weeks showed him the truth.

 

[Melgar]

I have to admit I was totally absorbed with 'The Structure of Scientific Revolutions' by Thomas Kuhn. "Scientific progress relies on paradigms, the shared framework of accepted theories and knowledge."
I loved it and it had a huge impact on my young mind and the way I see science and progress. I still think about it 40 years after first reading it.

Ed for spelling

 

[IanBish]

As someone who's had to suffer a high-carb diet recently, the after-effects can be quite unnerving: the bloating, the flatulence, and the "bulk" the next morning (I'll leave it there).

Also, alcohol has a greater effect. Low-carbers are cheap dates! Not relevant to this discussion, maybe, but it deserves some attention.

 

[MrsA2]

I totally recognise that this is the only correct, sane answer - it's just hard - particularly when you are cooking the stuff - more curly fries?

Exactly this, what @Outlier said.
3 years ago no one wanted to believe me or listen, but now more are following or at least trying it as they see that my results have lasted and it is not just a fad, or a fleeting result
Example, I go to a monthly supper club. All the others know I eat low carb and at first said "oh no I couldn't do that" etc, now at least 3 of them watch what I choose and then choose it for themselves (though none have yet said No to pudding!)
I think until it actually affects someone directly it is easier to stick to what we like/know/believe.

As to the cooking, I gradually changed from cooking carbs and avoiding them on my plate, now I cook low carb all the time and they (husband and adult son) have to actively add any carbs they want, I.e. consciously. We have separate storage areas (tins, shelves in freezer etc). They aren't allowed to steal my low carb treats or ingredients and I'm not allowed to steal theirs.

I don't preach, but will answer questions. Does slowly seem to be being accepted, but oh so slowly. Hubby just yesterday asked me what a ketone is... I thought he knew/had listened!!! But at least he asked/listened now

 

[Outlier]

We are similar. Luckily for me I have no trouble about "his" stash of whatever it is wherever it is, because it's "his". And he - the lucky husband - can add extras to his plate while I have more of what I can eat on mine. And I'm really not bothered. It works for me.

 

[Chris24Main]

Exactly this, what @Outlier said.
3 years ago no one wanted to believe me or listen, but now more are following or at least trying it as they see that my results have lasted and it is not just a fad, or a fleeting result
Example, I go to a monthly supper club. All the others know I eat low carb and at first said "oh no I couldn't do that" etc, now at least 3 of them watch what I choose and then choose it for themselves (though none have yet said No to pudding!)
I think until it actually affects someone directly it is easier to stick to what we like/know/believe.

As to the cooking, I gradually changed from cooking carbs and avoiding them on my plate, now I cook low carb all the time and they (husband and adult son) have to actively add any carbs they want, I.e. consciously. We have separate storage areas (tins, shelves in freezer etc). They aren't allowed to steal my low carb treats or ingredients and I'm not allowed to steal theirs.

I don't preach, but will answer questions. Does slowly seem to be being accepted, but oh so slowly. Hubby just yesterday asked me what a ketone is... I thought he knew/had listened!!! But at least he asked/listened now

Brilliant - love it ...
When I used one of my Ketone strips the other day to confirm I was in Ketosis (as opposed to Ketoacidosis, which is the reason I had the test strips in the first place) - I immediately commented to my wife that I was indeed producing Ketones; she replied 'oh, you must be very happy..'

Not really mocking ... (but definitely mocking...) and I had the same thought - you really haven't heard anything I've said about burning Ketones rather than Glucose...

 

[Chris24Main]

As someone who's had to suffer a high-carb diet recently, the after-effects can be quite unnerving: the bloating, the flatulence, and the "bulk" the next morning (I'll leave it there).

Also, alcohol has a greater effect. Low-carbers are cheap dates! Not relevant to this discussion, maybe, but it deserves some attention.

This was one of my most recent 'blown mind' moments - I'd given up alcohol quite independently over the course of maybe 2 years - it was really more Covid for me, I reasoned in the early days that as an asthmatic, and someone that had watched his Father die of Pneumonia, I should do whatever I could to be in good shape if/when I contracted Covid, so I cut down on alcohol and got better sleep, primarily... when I was diagnosed diabetic I had virtually stopped drinking all together... and I come from a heritage of hard drinking; I grew up in a trawling fishermen community - very heavy drinkers in my family, it was never in my plan to give up drinking - came as a huge surprise to discover I preferred not drinking at all.

Anyway - back to the point - in some video or other - someone mentioned the similar metabolic pathways of Fructose and Alcohol - the way that they are unique in their effect on the liver - and the comment was 'and we shouldn't be surprised about this, after all, what is Alcohol, other than fermented Fructose?'

... and ... of course it is...

So, all that craving for sugar with a hangover.. most of the addictiveness, the impulsivity - the way that sugar makes kids 'go hyper' ... it isn't that they are similar - Alcohol is just another way we have developed to take more sugar....

 

[Chris24Main]

I have to admit I was totally absorbed with 'The Structure of Scientific Revolutions' by Thomas Kuhn. "Scientific progress relies on paradigms, the shared framework of accepted theories and knowledge."
I loved it and it had a huge impact on my young mind and the way I see science and progress. I still think about it 40 years after first reading it.

Ed for spelling

As an obvious searcher for the truth - I have another recommendation for you (and I will definitely look out Thomas Kuhn) - 'Fast and Slow thinking by Daniel Kahneman' - Much more about the psychology of decision making than anything we may think of as being relevant to diabetes, but it gets to why we tend toward simple explanations for things... it's a book that has stuck with me in the way you describe...


[edit - got it]

 

[Melgar]

As an obvious searcher for the truth - I have another recommendation for you (and I will definitely look out Thomas Kuhn) - 'Fast and Slow thinking by Daniel Kahneman' - Much more about the psychology of decision making than anything we may think of as being relevant to diabetes, but it gets to why we tend toward simple explanations for things... it's a book that has stuck with me in the way you describe...


[edit - got it]
View attachment 67190

Thanks @Chris24Main I will certainly check out 'Fast and Slow thinking by Daniel Kahneman' the psychology of decision making is right up my street. " And I see it was on the New YorK Times, bestseller list.

¨The guru to the gurus at last shares his knowledge with the rest of us. Nobel laureate Daniel Kahneman's seminal studies in behavioral psychology, behavioral economics, and happiness studies have influenced numerous other authors, including Steven Pinker and Malcolm Gladwell. In Thinking, Fast and Slow, Kahneman at last offers his own, first book for the general public. It is a lucid and enlightening summary of his life's work. It will change the way you think about thinking."

I just grabbed that quote off of Amazon and with one click, the book is mine! I look forward to reading it.

When you think about the way revolutions of thought and 'progress' happen, if we can use the word progress, I'm very sceptical about the concept of human advancement, it is rarely about the pursuit of solutions to a problem in it's purest form. So many other factors are at play., two examples being the LDL hypothesis and low fat diets. To take those two relevant topics relating to diabetes, we have already touched on here, a concept takes hold, dissenting voices are suppressed until the established concept becomes unstable through the rising tide of external dissent, and I'm thinking about the case of low fat diets in particular, the undeniable success of low carb high fat diets have on blood sugars, how this ran contrary to the established hypothesis of low fat diets being the answer to managing type 2 diabetes. Fascinating.