The Dangers of Wheat

[Scardoc]

Borofergie - weight loss through exercise was not the point I was making. I was talking about preventing obesity in the first place through leading an active life. Conspiracy theories about the Government advocating exercise as opposed to eating less for economic gain just don't interest me. In reply to "which studies?", two such sites below and there are numerous more.

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/29/6/1433.full
http://www.research.utoronto.ca/behind_ ... toms-away/

Correlation may not imply causation. I think some people need to get past the idea that linking the two, being overweight and T2 diabetes, is an attack on people personally. It's not. Does being overweight, carrying the fat in certain areas or having a high level of visceral fat promote insulin resistance? Personally, I am inclined to believe it does and this is why this very site has a news item from yesterday which states "being overweight or obese is believed to be the most important risk factor for type 2 diabetes that people can change in their lives."

I also believe there are other causes and risk factors and that in time we will probably see T2 being broken down into various categories. Our bodies are so complex but in essence we're no different to the cars we drive. We need to be well looked after and maintained, we need good fuel, oil and we need to be worked. In this day and age we have a country with a growing number of old bangers. Some have got there through no fault of their own, mechanical problems mean they can't drive, but far too many are being left in the garage too often, are being filled with diesel instead of petrol and have critically low oil levels.

Let the scientists come up with the answers and then we can apportion blame because that's what we like to do nowadays. In the interim lets promote what we know to work in the treatment of those who already have diabetes (eg low carbs & exercise) and let's try and get the stable door shut before more horses bolt by applying pressure to the powers that be to start acting instead of talking (ie fat tax on food).

 

[Dillinger]

How about if it proves to be that overweight is a symptom of Diabetes, not a cause?

Absolutely, cause and effect are sometimes easy to confuse. Lots of Kenyans run Marathons, that doesn't mean Marathon running makes you Kenyan.

Dillinger

 

[lucylocket61]

Does being overweight, carrying the fat in certain areas or having a high level of visceral fat promote insulin resistance? Personally, I am inclined to believe it does and this is why this very site has a news item from yesterday which states "being overweight or obese is believed to be the most important risk factor for type 2 diabetes that people can change in their lives."

The point I am trying to make Scardoc is this:

The part where it says "that people can change in their lives" as though they can choose not to become obese. Now, there are at least 2 important bits missing from this view:

1) I have personally experienced, and know of others, who have either eating what is considered an appropriate amount of calories, or less for their height, weight, activity levels, age etc, and still continued to pile on visceral fat.

2) I have experienced and personally know of others who then starve themselves and exercise, but do not lose the visceral fat.

There is also the point that many, if not most super-sized people are not diabetics. I am NOT saying that obesity has its part in diabetic diagnosis. It does. But I AM saying that it is the reverse situation. The pancreatic failure comes first, leading to obesity, which then continues the spiral of illness.

So saying that some obese people become diabetic is, to me, the wrong way round. Some people in the first stages of diabetes become obese.

I wish I could think of an adequate illustration. Its like saying periods cause puberty, not puberty causes periods. And we dont blame teenagers for having periods, do we?

So the obese cant change their lives until they have the appropriate treatment to make that possible, which involves addressing the pancreatic problem.

if it was a simple equation of Obese=Diabetic then all obese people would become diabetic, and no Type 2's would be thin at diagnosis.

edited to add the word 'some' into my 5th from the bottom paragraph. It has been pointed out to me, quite correctly, that I had worded it improperly. I have now amended it.

 

[Scardoc]

Lucylocket "So saying that obese people become diabetic is, to me, the wrong way round. People in the first stages of diabetes become obese."

So diabetic people become obese? I wonder if Grazer would agree as "Never overweight, before or since, ever" as per the earlier post. You cannot blame obesity on one thing only and claim that every diabetic who has been diagnosed obese, is obese because of their diabetes. That's way too simplistic and I agree it is also way too simplistic to say that all obese people will be diabetic. Even this website states: "It is thought that the principle cause of insulin resistance is obesity."

If it was as simple as diabetes = obesity then surely all T2's would be obese at diagnosis? This is not the case and there is evidence that insulin resistance does not always lead to T2 diabetes and that the risk of developing T2 can be reduced up to 58% by diet and exercise.

There are no adequate illustrations that I can think of for either case because of the complexity of the human body and it's processes. The puberty vs period argument doesn't wash because there is a significant biological and evolutionary reason why we have puberty and why women have periods, ie, procreation and the survival of the species. A lot of Kenyans do run marathons and are seriously good at it and again there are good biological, geographical and sociological reasons why this is so. Obesity doesn't serve a purpose, there's no great evolutionary or biological reason for people to be obese.

I readily accept that there are many people who, through no fault of their own, cannot control their weight and that getting older and having a slower metabolism plays a significant part in weight gain. However, I do not accept that is out with the majority of peoples control, especially the younger gerneration, and firmly believe it's our lifestyle that's to blame.

 

[lucylocket61]

Sacardoc:

please insert the word 'some' into my quote.

I do not accept that is out with the majority of peoples control, especially the younger generation, and firmly believe it's our lifestyle that's to blame.

Fine, I disagree. Why are you highlighting the younger generation as more able to control their weight?

 

[Scardoc]

Sacardoc:

please insert the word 'some' into my quote.

I do not accept that is out with the majority of peoples control, especially the younger generation, and firmly believe it's our lifestyle that's to blame.

Fine, I disagree. Why are you highlighting the younger generation as more able to control their weight?

I consider younger people as being far more able to be physically active (especially strenuous exercise) and have better metabolisms. I think it is an absolute scandal in this country that so many children are being diagnosed overweight and obese and the real shame is that in many cases it really isn't their fault. It's their parents.

 

[Defren]

I think it is an absolute scandal in this country that so many children are being diagnosed overweight and obese and the real shame is that in many cases it really isn't their fault. It's their parents.

I agree with this. It is a parents responsibility to make sure their children eat a healthy and sensible diet. I do want to say one thing here though. My daughter had a friend, and this young girls was obese, very obese. Her mom was worried sick as she binged from the fridge day and night. She would wake in the night, just to eat. IN the end she was diagnosed with an eating disorder. Thankfully she is fine now, and does eat normally, but for a couple of years or more, her and her family went through hell. So lets not tar all parents with the same brush, mainly it is their fault if the children are over weight, but not always.

 

[Scardoc]

Defren - absolutely correct and at the risk of sounding like a broken record there are always exceptions. Also worth mentioning again that there are often reasons under pinning these things, eg, the Government cosying up to some food giants instead of tackling them and the cost of fresh fruit and veg. That said, if a multipack of crisps is cheaper than fruit and you are waiting at the school gates with a fag hanging out your mouth then........ nuff said.

 

[borofergie]

I agree with this. It is a parents responsibility to make sure their children eat a healthy and sensible diet. I do want to say one thing here though. My daughter had a friend, and this young girls was obese, very obese. Her mom was worried sick as she binged from the fridge day and night. She would wake in the night, just to eat. IN the end she was diagnosed with an eating disorder. Thankfully she is fine now, and does eat normally, but for a couple of years or more, her and her family went through hell. So lets not tar all parents with the same brush, mainly it is their fault if the children are over weight, but not always.

Parents should make their kids eat a healthy and sensible "low-fat" / "high-carb" diet (full of healthy wholegrains) as recommended by the government?

 

[Defren]

Defren - absolutely correct and at the risk of sounding like a broken record there are always exceptions. Also worth mentioning again that there are often reasons under pinning these things, eg, the Government cosying up to some food giants instead of tackling them and the cost of fresh fruit and veg. That said, if a multipack of crisps is cheaper than fruit and you are waiting at the school gates with a fag hanging out your mouth then........ nuff said.

Exactly, I'm not going to argue with any of this. When I was a child, food was organic by default. Nowadays no self respecting slug would go near a lettuce, and I can't say I blame them. Recently I stopped buying fruit, veg and meat from my local Sainsbury's, I now buy from a greengrocer and butcher. My greengrocer encourages questions about his produce, and it's organic and locally produced. I don't want chemicals, I don't want GM food, I want healthy wholesome food that my body was designed and engineered to utilise. So, I don't eat carbs, sugar, wheat or grains, ready meals, the carbs and sugar for my diabetes and also carbs as they are not what I see as a healthy food choice, they make people fat! Wheat and grain are not good for us. Ready meals full of chemicals and nastie's.

When a burger costs less than a portion of fresh fruit, then you know you have a problem. Like smoking, although I am pleased to see the numbers of smokers falling, still the vast majority are teenagers and young adults.

 

[Scardoc]

[quote="Defren When a burger costs less than a portion of fresh fruit, then you know you have a problem. Like smoking, although I am pleased to see the numbers of smokers falling, still the vast majority are teenagers and young adults.[/quote]

At £7 odd a packet it's no wonder the numbers are falling! My daughter frequently tells us (when the lectures start) that smoking is totally uncool these days. Can our leaders not look into why and apply it to other areas of life?

Eg, if they made a happy meal £10 a time then we'd soon see an unhappy Ronald

 

[Defren]

[quote="]Defren When a burger costs less than a portion of fresh fruit, then you know you have a problem. Like smoking, although I am pleased to see the numbers of smokers falling, still the vast majority are teenagers and young adults.

At £7 odd a packet it's no wonder the numbers are falling! My daughter frequently tells us (when the lectures start) that smoking is totally uncool these days. Can our leaders not look into why and apply it to other areas of life?

Eg, if they made a happy meal £10 a time then we'd soon see an unhappy Ronald [/quote][/quote]

Smoking is uncool, it is expensive and smokers stink!! I would be ok with a £10 happy meal as I don't touch fast food it's just unhealthy fat and chemicals mixed with a bit of goo and a bit of meat - YUK!!

 

[borofergie]

When a burger costs less than a portion of fresh fruit, then you know you have a problem.

This is the problem: You've been brainwashed into thinking that a portion of fresh fruit is healthier for you than a burger.

How can you expect parents to give good dietary advice, when they are getting poor advice themselves?

 

[Defren]

When a burger costs less than a portion of fresh fruit, then you know you have a problem.

This is the problem: You've been brainwashed into thinking that a portion of fresh fruit is healthier for you than a burger.

How can you expect parents to give good dietary advice, when they are getting poor advice themselves?

I often wonder why this forum does not have a smiley poking it's tongue out Stephen, so this will have to suffice :- P

 

[borofergie]

I would be ok with a £10 happy meal as I don't touch fast food it's just unhealthy fat and chemicals mixed with a bit of goo and a bit of meat - YUK!!

Here we go again: "unhealthy fat". What would you rather eat "healthy carbs". How about "healthy wholegrains"?

 

[Scardoc]

When a burger costs less than a portion of fresh fruit, then you know you have a problem.

This is the problem: You've been brainwashed into thinking that a portion of fresh fruit is healthier for you than a burger.

How can you expect parents to give good dietary advice, when they are getting poor advice themselves?

I'd like to hear the argument for a burger, from an established fast food outlet, complete with ketchup and processed cheese and a little box of fries (cause what's the burger without the fries) being healthier than a portion of fruit.... for the sake of argument, a Golden Delicious apple as I happen to have just eaten one.

Proceed. :thumbup:

 

[Defren]

I would be ok with a £10 happy meal as I don't touch fast food it's just unhealthy fat and chemicals mixed with a bit of goo and a bit of meat - YUK!!

Here we go again: "unhealthy fat". What would you rather eat "healthy carbs". How about "healthy wholegrains"?

How about no thanks. I am just off to have a lovely healthy tuna salad, with avocado. You can keep your healthy grains, fats and carbs, I wouldn't at them for all the tea in China, and I do love a good cup of Earl Grey. That reminds me. I had a cup of Earl Grey in Sainsbury's yesterday, it was vile. I shall stick to Whittards or Twinnings.

 

[borofergie]

I'd like to hear the argument for a burger, from an established fast food outlet, complete with ketchup and processed cheese and a little box of fries (cause what's the burger without the fries) being healthier than a portion of fruit.... for the sake of argument, a Golden Delicious apple as I happen to have just eaten one.

Well she didn't say anything about "an established fast food outlet" she just said a "burger". If you throw away the bun, and don't eat any of the fries, I'm pretty sure that a ball of protein and fat is better for you than a ball of fructose.

The point is that the message that parents get is exactly "five portions of fruit a day", "lots of healthy wholegrains" and "saturated fat is bad for you". High-carb/low-fat.

I eat burgers all the time. I doubt that I'll ever eat an apple again.

 

[Paul1976]

Yeah,me and my kids eat a lot of homemade patties without the bun served with oodles of salad and they're thriving and full of energy.IF mcDonalds patties truly ARE just 100% beef with a pinch of seasoning as they claimed on an advert several years ago-Then I'll still eat 'em,it's the processed white starchy bun and radioactive fries I avoid like the plague.

 

[Scardoc]

[quote="borofergie Well she didn't say anything about "an established fast food outlet" she just said a "burger". If you throw away the bun, and don't eat any of the fries, I'm pretty sure that a ball of protein and fat is better for you than a ball of fructose.

The point is that the message that parents get is exactly "five portions of fruit a day", "lots of healthy wholegrains" and "saturated fat is bad for you". High-carb/low-fat.

I eat burgers all the time. I doubt that I'll ever eat an apple again.[/quote]

There are certainly healthy burgers to be had but not the salt laden variety that pollute our towns and cities these days.