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The Dangers of Wheat

Of course you are correct, from some peoples point of view the lowest end isn't low carb.( The discussion in that paper summarises the evidence that that was available in 2009 ie not just that in the DCCT. Find some better evidence, especially as to trends.
Since then a literature review looking at trials since 2001 http://care.diabetesjournals.org/conten ... l.pdf+html found no valid research on low carb, meaning below 40% ,diets in T1.
From a personal point of view my own carb intake in grams is very much at the bottom end of the DCCT distribution, though I eat fewer calories .I have an excellent HbA1c . It's interesting how perceptions of what a low/ moderate/high carb diet are vary but anecdote as I wrote earlier is not data.

Dillinger,
I don't actually see the relevance of the Accord and Advance trials . Surely as a T1 if you become more insulin resistant then you also have to take more insulin to keep your levels down, a rather self defeating object!
I wonder what you think I eat. Tonight for me those d things comprised three quarters of a plate of carbs: asparagus, a large mixed salad , strawberries and a few evil new potatoes.
edit to answer Dillinger
 
Please excuse my ignorance about T1's and pumps:

Does the pump enable you to tightly control your blood sugar levels and adjust your insulin accordingly?

I am just wondering if that ability to be tightly controlled enables you to have a very good HbA1c level without low carbing like I have to do.

My friends son is 17 and newly diagnosed as T1 and they have put him on the waiting list for a pump.
 
lucylocket61 said:
Please excuse my ignorance about T1's and pumps:

Does the pump enable you to tightly control your blood sugar levels and adjust your insulin accordingly?

I am just wondering if that ability to be tightly controlled enables you to have a very good HbA1c level without low carbing like I have to do.

My friends son is 17 and newly diagnosed as T1 and they have put him on the waiting list for a pump.
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You not far off there lucy..

T1 ones have 2 problems where concerning insulin..

As we need insulin to tackle the glucose being fed into our blood, so that our levels remain stable while fasting known basal profile/insulin..

Then has you know we need to have insulin to cover the carbs we eat.. Bolus insulin..

As we all know, our liver reacts to the ebb and rise of our hormones over the 24 hour period, one injection of background insulin or perhaps a split into 2, will cover this for most T1's..

So pumps can be programmed to deliver a different amount of insulin to tackle the amount of glucose being fed into the blood by the liver.. In my case to control my basal profile, I have 13 flow changes in 24 hour period of between 0.1-0.6 at it's highest per hour!

As you already know that when we eat carbs, we inject our insulin to cover, but the adsorption rate of injected insulin is different to our foods, so timing can be an issue and for some so can the actually amount of insulin being injected can.

Problem with insulin pens you limited to min of 1 unit, (1/2 unit pens are pretty hard to get hold off, and the accuracy is not great at 1/2 unit) pumps have the ability to deliver a accurate bolus of 0.1 unit and can deliver a dose in 3 different ways, to nearer match the adsorption of our food... Really helpful if like me you are pretty insulin sensitive with a little goes a long way..

But even saying that they won't enable you to eat great big mounds of pasta etc and still maintain control, so work best with a min of moderate carb diet, and I should image if you chose to go VLC diet then really become helpful so I don't understand why Bernstein is very anti pumps!

Take for tonight for example, tea was cauliflower cheese, so around 15g of carbs, due to the lack of starchy carbs and high fat/protein content I have to add insulin to cover this.. So used 2.3 units of insulin (couldn't do that with a pen) delivered evenly over 30 minutes... Starting BG 4.6 mmol/l 2 hours later 4,8mmol/l Couldn't do that with an injection, as I would have had to hazard a time guess to inject my insulin. and would had to have 2 units, and be faced with getting it wrong giving myself an hypo, or going high probably into the 7mmol/l's..

Hope I haven't over explained!
 
Is it worth pointing out that 40% carbs by energy is about 55% carbs by weight (200g on a nominal 2000kcal diet).

If over half your plate is full of carbohydrate, I think you'd struggle to honestly call it "low-carb".
 
phoenix said:
Well,look at what a diet high in grain does to a goose's liver!
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Sounds definitive but just come and see the gavage of ducks around here Paul, (and geese are no different), maize by itself wouldn't go down too well so it is boiled with a lot of fat. (as an aside done properly it takes hours to feed a small flock )
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While I'm sure a bit of fat helps the palatibility of the mix, the point of feeding ducks and geese corn is to enduce "de novo hepatic lipogenesis". Forgive me if I'm wrong, but that only comes from the metabolism of carbohydrates (hence the "de novo" and "lipogenesis"). If you want to get yourself a nice fatty liver, a high-fat diet would be a paticularly poor choice.

W. Molee, National School of Agronomics at Toulouse, et al:
This study provides evidence that overfeeding with a carbohydrate-rich corn-based diet induces a de novo hepatic lipogenesis in Mule duck which predominates over dietary lipid intake to change the lipid composition of the hepatocyte plasma membrane.
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Dominique Hermier, National Institute for Agronomical Research, Orsay, France, et al:
In response to overfeeding, de novo hepatic lipogenesis from dietary carbohydrates is dramatically enhanced in the goose.
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When I was diagnosed, I had a foie gras quality liver, full of carbohydrate induced fatty deposits. They've all gone now due to my low-carb diet.
 
+1 Exactly the point I was trying to make when I made reference to the foie gras industry.
 
Re Foie gras
(quote from an earlier post)
To misquote Hellerstein http://www.ajcn.org/content/74/6/707.full
'de novo lipogenesis is the pathway of last resort and that, at least regarding converting carbohydrates to fats, humans are neither bees nor birds' (pigs in the original)."
The conversion of carbs to fat is a more important pathway in avians (necessary for winter survival)
Nevertheless,the mix for fattening ducks and geese for foie gras is truly excessive and is both high fat and high carb(maize boiled with fat) Food intake increases to more than double that ingested before gavage .
 
phoenix said:
totally agree, but how many calories are you eating at the moment?
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Now there you catch me red handed Phoenix :lol: . Yes I do count calories as well as carbs and I've said so many times as like you I believe energy density and all that stuff is important. I work out my BMR then do roughly what it says minus around 600 calories which I hope you'll agree isn't extreme. At the moment that means I'm eating around 1800 calories a day with a bit more at the weekends with a few extra treats. This is giving me roughly a 2lb loss per week which is nice and steady and stops me getting hungry.

However that still doesn't alter the fact that those 1800 calories are low carb high fat or more truthfully a low carb, more protein, high but not totally high fat diet. Food wise I average around 50g to 60g of carbs a day. I don't count the carbs in milk I put in tea or coffee so lets call it 65g to 70g actual. At that 70g tops then [(70 x 4) / 1800] x 100 = 15% Carbs which you'll agree is low carb.

As a diet only plus Metformin T2 I do that 50 to 60g a day as that keeps my levels safe. They don't particularly spike any more if I say go to 80 or 100g / day but my daily averages start to rise so pretty soon I would be spiking over safety if I continued. That's just a fact of life of being a T2 and one I hope you can appreciate and respect.

To be honest Phoenix I accept I am never likely to be able to eat significantly more carbs without taking more meds or electing for insulin. I weighed myself today and another 2lbs down in a week so my BMI is now 24 and I'm aiming for 22. I have seen some improvements by losing weight so for example I couldn't have eaten 80g / day 3 months ago without spiking horribly so my insulin resistance has got somewhat better but it looks like my beta cells are pretty shot to pieces. If I'm going to have to do lchf to keep safe I may as well make my diet as nice as possible at the same time.

What did you think of that new T1 Swedish study?

http://www.dmsjournal.com/content/pdf/1758-5996-4-23.pdf

Conclusion

An educational program involving a low-carbohydrate diet and correspondingly reduced
insulin doses for informed individuals with type 1 diabetes gives acceptable adherence after
4 years. One in two people attending the education achieves a long-term significant HbA1c
reduction.
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What did you think of that new T1 Swedish study
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Not much ( Self selected subjects, poor compliance, why did the majority give up ? was it the diet or the results,no data on that. Discussion wasn't !)
Had enough thinking for tonight though!
 
Excellent info here ! well done all.
One question, if you don't have much of an appetite does it matter if you take Metformin or Gliclazide on an empty stomach ?
Regards Superchip
 
Superchip said:
Excellent info here ! well done all.
One question, if you don't have much of an appetite does it matter if you take Metformin or Gliclazide on an empty stomach ?
Regards Superchip
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Gliclazide,yes is the Answer to that as in very simple terms, gliclazide is a pancreas stimulating drug so if taken on an empty stomach,you do run the risk of Hypoglycaemia as the drug is effectively kicking your pancreas to release insulin without food for it to act on.
 
Paul1976 said:
Superchip said:
Excellent info here ! well done all.
One question, if you don't have much of an appetite does it matter if you take Metformin or Gliclazide on an empty stomach ?
Regards Superchip
Click to expand...
Gliclazide,yes is the Answer to that as in very simple terms, gliclazide is a pancreas stimulating drug so if taken on an empty stomach,you do run the risk of Hypoglycaemia as the drug is effectively kicking your pancreas to release insulin without food for it to act on.
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Yes DON'T do that. We had a case of someone who did that a while back and ended up fainting in a shop. If you take Glic I'd always make sure you eat something or you can risk a hypo. As far as I know Glic will make your pancreas produce insulin regardless of if your body needs it at that moment so in extreme cases you are effectively giving yourself an insulin overdose in the same way as if a T1 miscalculated their insulin dose.
 
Much obliged Paul1976.and xyzzy, Makes sense now.
My HBA1C is 6.6 and have recently had a 3.6 BG and felt VERY bad around lunchtime, no breakfast but took 3 Gliclazide !
I need to adjust my regime.
Thanks again for your help.

Superchip
 
borofergie said:
I think that we should split this thread...
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Yes agree as otherwise we are off topic on your other favourite - grains. What do you want to call it?

Where's a mod when you need one? If you look at the list of logged on people no one is around by the looks of things.

[edit - Daisy's just turned up :wave: ]
 
Being a recently diagnosed T2 and new to the forum, I have been very interested in this thread. I do not have the knowledge or experience of type 2 to make any comment into the dangers or not, however ......

It all made me reflect on my own dietary past, I put weight on after the birth of our daughter 28 years ago but managed to take it off. Then in '86 I became vegetarian, this was a decision made due to animal husbandry and the drugs they were pumping into them at the time.

I have always eaten what has been considered a healthy diet plenty of fresh fruit and veg, more than 5 a day most of which have been grown by me or sourced locally. I ate balanced amounts of pasta, rice and bread but the weight continued to rise - then it reached a plateau and I became happy with who I was. Looking back, with my mother's background of T2, I was probably 'healthily' eating myself to a type 2 diagnosis.

I feel much better cutting out grains, and I have proved by testing that they raise my BG. I miss the fruit a lot but make up with salads - what I am trying to say is that on reflection, if I knew then what I know about wheat and fruit sugars - I would have given them up too! :)
 
Hi :wave:
Will do my best after a boozy lunch and bear with me, it will take a while to do.
 
I'm not disagreeing with any of these posts but I think there should be more consideration given to the fact that each and every one of us is different and that your BMR can be effected by a number of different factors including stress. Also, a lot of the facts and figures relate, as Borofergie pointed out, to standard human metabolism and have nothing to do with diabetes.

I am, however, a little confused by the fact and figures for glycogen storage:

"Glycogen storage capacity in man is approximately 15 g/kg body weight and can accommodate a gain of approximately 500 g before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass."

I am a man, I am approx 81kg which gives me a "bucket" of 1,215 grams which is twice what Borofergie says "Glycogen storage capacity in a human is 300-500g in muscle, and 70-100g in the liver." & "The bucket can hold 600g maximum". This is a huge difference.
 
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