The Dangers of Wheat

[borofergie]

+1 Paul.

We made our own Burgers this weekend for the BBQ. They were delicious, I must have eaten at least 10.

Last week I went to a Conference at Excel. There were about 20 fast food outlets, all of which sold various types of refined carbohydrate. The only food that I could eat was a cheese-burger, sans bun and fries.

 

[Paul1976]

Yeah,same here,did the BBQ with aload of meaty goodies and filled my boots,I was very full but not bloated like in the old days when everything had a bun wrapped around it and suffered no indigestion at all like I used to(which is good for me having crohns disease)

 

[borofergie]

There are certainly healthy burgers to be had but not the salt laden variety that pollute our towns and cities these days.

Again, same message "fat is bad for you", "meat is bad for you", "salt is bad for you".

The science that backs up any of those "Holy Commandments" is poor or non-existent, but they get parrotted as "established truth".

I'm pretty sure that my diabetes was caused by following a "low-fat", "five-a-day diet".

 

[Defren]

I'd like to hear the argument for a burger, from an established fast food outlet, complete with ketchup and processed cheese and a little box of fries (cause what's the burger without the fries) being healthier than a portion of fruit.... for the sake of argument, a Golden Delicious apple as I happen to have just eaten one.

Well she didn't say anything about "an established fast food outlet" she just said a "burger". If you throw away the bun, and don't eat any of the fries, I'm pretty sure that a ball of protein and fat is better for you than a ball of fructose.

The point is that the message that parents get is exactly "five portions of fruit a day", "lots of healthy wholegrains" and "saturated fat is bad for you". High-carb/low-fat.

I eat burgers all the time. I doubt that I'll ever eat an apple again.

The problem is, we have no real way of knowing what is in any outlets burgers. I would happily eat ones I made at home, as I would know exactly what was in them. The same can't be said for shop bought ones. :sick:

 

[borofergie]

I got fat eating healthy wholegrain sanwiches, with low-fat spread and a portion of grapes. I used to look in disgust at my (somehow) skinny mates eating a fat laden half roast chicken everyday for lunch.

Now I'm the one that's eating the greasy chicken everday, and I've lost 60lbs and got a truly non-diabetic HbA1c.

Go figure.

 

[Scardoc]

There are certainly healthy burgers to be had but not the salt laden variety that pollute our towns and cities these days.

Again, same message "fat is bad for you", "meat is bad for you", "salt is bad for you".

The science that backs up any of those "Holy Commandments" is poor or non-existent, but they get parrotted as "established truth".

I'm pretty sure that my diabetes was caused by following a "low-fat", "five-a-day diet".

At some point or another we will be told that practically everything is bad for you and fructose is a good example. I don't believe the natural fructose in fruit does you any harm - unless your eating seriously huge amounts a day! The fructose added to other products is the big danger as it's overloading your liver. The science is often twisted and the original message lost.

A balanced diet of each of the food groups eaten in moderation with regular exercise is what I aim for. I think the key is moderation - too much fat is bad for you, too much meat is bad for you, too much salt is bad for you etc.

 

[Sid Bonkers]

A balanced diet of each of the food groups eaten in moderation with regular exercise is what I aim for. I think the key is moderation - too much fat is bad for you, too much meat is bad for you, too much salt is bad for you etc.

So simple and so true :clap: :clap:

 

[xyzzy]

I'd like to hear the argument for a burger, from an established fast food outlet, complete with ketchup and processed cheese and a little box of fries (cause what's the burger without the fries) being healthier than a portion of fruit.... for the sake of argument, a Golden Delicious apple as I happen to have just eaten one.

Well she didn't say anything about "an established fast food outlet" she just said a "burger". If you throw away the bun, and don't eat any of the fries, I'm pretty sure that a ball of protein and fat is better for you than a ball of fructose.

The point is that the message that parents get is exactly "five portions of fruit a day", "lots of healthy wholegrains" and "saturated fat is bad for you". High-carb/low-fat.

I eat burgers all the time. I doubt that I'll ever eat an apple again.

+1 Stephen.

Takes a bit of a leap of faith Scardoc. 4 months lost 25kg's eating bacon, egg and mushroom fry ups 3 times a week, cheese, butter, loads of eggs, cream, full fat yoghurt would swap to full fat milk but I don't like it. Look at my sig for what it did to my HbA1c and Cholesterol levels and my BP is now on the low side. Of course I eat load of veg as well and as I said on your other thread just WALK my dogs around 1 hour most days.

I eat a few berries with my full fat yoghurt and occasionally have a bit of fresh fruit salad. Might be healthy for you but not with all that sugar in them for me. If I go out for a meal I do exactly what Stephen just said so I'll ask for say steak and chips but then say no chips but add a couple of fried eggs and bacon instead.

You might not want to believe it Scardoc but we can't all be wrong can we. There are loads of T2's doing EXACTLY what I've just said and all are losing weight and getting their lives back under control. Two have even posted up their new brilliant hBA1c results in the last hour. By definition if you do a low carb regime then unless you replace all those carbs with protein you will by definition end up on a low carb high fat regime whether you admit that to yourself or not.

 

[Paul1976]

By definition if you do a low carb regime then unless you replace all those carbs with protein you will by definition end up on a low carb high fat regime whether you admit that to yourself or not.

Or it must be almost a starvataion Diet if you're not increasing fat and protein especially if you are Physically active

 

[Defren]

There are certainly healthy burgers to be had but not the salt laden variety that pollute our towns and cities these days.

Again, same message "fat is bad for you", "meat is bad for you", "salt is bad for you".

The science that backs up any of those "Holy Commandments" is poor or non-existent, but they get parrotted as "established truth".

I'm pretty sure that my diabetes was caused by following a "low-fat", "five-a-day diet".

At some point or another we will be told that practically everything is bad for you and fructose is a good example. I don't believe the natural fructose in fruit does you any harm - unless your eating seriously huge amounts a day! The fructose added to other products is the big danger as it's overloading your liver. The science is often twisted and the original message lost.

A balanced diet of each of the food groups eaten in moderation with regular exercise is what I aim for. I think the key is moderation - too much fat is bad for you, too much meat is bad for you, too much salt is bad for you etc.

I know T1 is not easy, and I'm not for a second suggesting it is, but T1's can have a little more leeway with carbs than a T2 can. If you go over the carbs, and your BG rises, you can cover, we can't. So the

A balanced diet of each of the food groups eaten in moderation with regular exercise is what I aim for. I think the key is moderation

could well be true for you, but T2's have to be more careful, especially with carbs, and the fructose in fruit.

 

[Defren]

You might not want to believe it Scardoc but we can't all be wrong can we. There are loads of T2's doing EXACTLY what I've just said and all are losing weight and getting their lives back under control. Two have even posted up their new brilliant hBA1c results in the last hour. By definition if you do a low carb regime then unless you replace all those carbs with protein you will by definition end up on a low carb high fat regime whether you admit that to yourself or not.

No we can't all be wrong. I ULC have BG in the 4's or low 5's mostly, lost almost six stone and am the healthiest I have been in years. If it wrong, then I plan carrying on being wrong. :lol:

 

[noblehead]

The point is that the message that parents get is exactly "five portions of fruit a day", "lots of healthy wholegrains" and "saturated fat is bad for you".

Yeah it's terrible

 

[noblehead]

A balanced diet of each of the food groups eaten in moderation with regular exercise is what I aim for. I think the key is moderation - too much fat is bad for you, too much meat is bad for you, too much salt is bad for you etc.

Sounds good to me Scardoc :thumbup:

 

[lucylocket61]

I see I have got confused again between the advice for Type 1's and Type 2's not on insulin.

As I am type 2 without insulin, I will continue to control my carbs strictly and avoid wheat, as that is virtually my only way to keep my levels down.

 

[borofergie]

A balanced diet of each of the food groups eaten in moderation with regular exercise is what I aim for. I think the key is moderation - too much fat is bad for you, too much meat is bad for you, too much salt is bad for you etc.

This statement doesn't contain any information.

"Too much" water is bad for you, so is "too much" air, so is "too much" sex That's what "too much" means.

Of course you have to eat some carbohydrates (from a practial point of view it would be difficult no to), and if you don't eat enough fat or protein, then you die (in the end).

However a dietician's definition of "balanced" (50% energy from carbs) is completely different than mine (60 to 80% calories from fat). My definition is based on the biological requirement for each macronutrient.

I have no idea what the rationale behind a 50% carb "healthy wholegrain" diet is. I'm fairly sure if I ate one I'd be fatter and more diabetic.

 

[Paul1976]

Well,look at what a diet high in grain does to a goose's liver! :shock:

 

[phoenix]

By definition if you do a low carb regime then unless you replace all those carbs with protein you will by definition end up on a low carb high fat regime whether you admit that to yourself or not

totally agree, but how many calories are you eating at the moment?
Low carb diets cause weight loss when the carbs aren't replaced. When someone is of normal weight or less then in order to maintain weigh they will have to replace the missing calories with fat.
That's where for me the questions begin.

For those of us with T1 the best evidence and admittedly, there isn't a lot (certainly not the latest Swedish study) from the DCCT/EDIC trial and most other shorter term trials is that the fat content is the most crucial element in 'intensively controlled' ie basal/bolus regimes T1s. Those who replace carbs with fat have higher HbA1cs.
http://www.ajcn.org/content/89/2/518.full
The above paper also suggests that the reason for this is that 'high-fat meals interfere with indexes of insulin signaling, which results in a transient increase in insulin resistance' . This is not just a type 1 thing and maybe why those who adopt a low carb diet sometimes find themselves less and less able to cope with any carbs. (remember what happens to glucose tolerance tests after a low carb diet) On the other hand, some who adopt a careful but more moderate approach find they can eat a wide variety of foods.

Well,look at what a diet high in grain does to a goose's liver!

Sounds definitive but just come and see the gavage of ducks around here Paul, (and geese are no different), maize by itself wouldn't go down too well so it is boiled with a lot of fat. (as an aside done properly it takes hours to feed a small flock )

 

[Etty]

...

For those of us with T1 the best evidence and admittedly, there isn't a lot (certainly not the latest Swedish study) from the DCCT/EDIC trial and most other shorter term trials is that the fat content is the most crucial element in 'intensively controlled' ie basal/bolus regimes T1s. Those who replace carbs with fat have higher HbA1cs.
http://www.ajcn.org/content/89/2/518.full
The above paper also suggests that the reason for this is that 'high-fat meals interfere with indexes of insulin signaling, which results in a transient increase in insulin resistance' . This is not just a type 1 thing and maybe why those who adopt a low carb diet sometimes find themselves less and less able to cope with any carbs. (remember what happens to glucose tolerance tests after a low carb diet) On the other hand, some who adopt a careful but more moderate approach find they can eat a wide variety of foods.

The mean carb levels for their quintiles go from 181g to 245g (as % energy, from 34% to 49%). There is no low carb group here.

 

[Grazer]

By definition if you do a low carb regime then unless you replace all those carbs with protein you will by definition end up on a low carb high fat regime whether you admit that to yourself or not

totally agree, but how many calories are you eating at the moment?
Low carb diets cause weight loss when the carbs aren't replaced. When someone is of normal weight or less then in order to maintain weigh they will have to replace the missing calories with fat.
That's where for me the questions begin.

For those of us with T1 the best evidence and admittedly, there isn't a lot (certainly not the latest Swedish study) from the DCCT/EDIC trial and most other shorter term trials is that the fat content is the most crucial element in 'intensively controlled' ie basal/bolus regimes T1s. Those who replace carbs with fat have higher HbA1cs.
http://www.ajcn.org/content/89/2/518.full
The above paper also suggests that the reason for this is that 'high-fat meals interfere with indexes of insulin signaling, which results in a transient increase in insulin resistance' . This is not just a type 1 thing and maybe why those who adopt a low carb diet sometimes find themselves less and less able to cope with any carbs. (remember what happens to glucose tolerance tests after a low carb diet) On the other hand, some who adopt a careful but more moderate approach find they can eat a wide variety of foods.

Well,look at what a diet high in grain does to a goose's liver!

Sounds definitive but just come and see the gavage of ducks around here Paul, (and geese are no different), maize by itself wouldn't go down too well so it is boiled with a lot of fat. (as an aside done properly it takes hours to feed a small flock )[/quot

From what I can read, it's not the fat per Se causing the insulin resistance, but the fatty tissues associated with it in overweight people. If so, the weight loss associated with low carbs should more than cancel this.If the people in the study, as suggested above, weren't really low carbing but high fatting, then the study wouldn't seem relevant to t2s on here losing weight on a true low carb diet

 

[Dillinger]

Phoenix - the study says that in relation to the participants "At the outset, the diet-composition goals for participants in the DCCT were 10–25% protein, 30–35% fat, 45–55% carbohydrate."

As has been said that is in no way a low carb diet.

In my experience the statement that replacing carbs with fat leads to higher HbA1c is ABSOLUTELY wrong. What the study demonstrates is that 'intensive control' whilst eating lots of carbohydrate is a BAD idea, just like the ACCORD and ADVANCE studies. In no way does this address the safety or efficacy of a low carb diet.

I'm somewhat shocked that such a blasé misrepresentation of the facts can be made by such an apparently intelligent and sensible person, Phoenix.

If you want to reduce your HbA1c results eat less carbohydrate. The less you eat the more sensitive to them you will become; but so what? Just avoid eating the things..!

Dillinger