What does the UK leaving the EU mean for us?

RuthW

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The majority of Poles didn't have the right to vote in the referendum though...


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Yes, but just accepting their presence in the UK is not evidence that the forces of Anti-Racism are in the ascendant. That's all I mean


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RuthW

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Sadly every tribe has another tribe some of them look down on to varying degrees. In that sense we are all the same.

Yes, it's the essence of all -isms, isn't it? The psychological comfort that one is "better" than another and the claim that one has more right to financial resources than other because of some 'inherent' quality such as sex or colour or nation (very extendable list) rather than skill, ability or even personal qualities (patience, education, empathy) which can be learned or acquired by effort.

Underlying the dispute is how we as a society define 'justice'.

I think the vote and its interpretation is complex. My first post was about precisely that. We can't divide into 'baddies' and 'goodies'. That will just complete the descent into anarchy.


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james122

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Leaving the EU for me as a 19 year old is one of the worst things that could of happened to me. My freedom of movement just gone out of the door!
 
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Lynbarn

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Leaving the EU for me as a 19 year old is one of the worst things that could of happened to me. My freedom of movement just gone out of the door!


James I can never understand this comment, what is now stopping you going to these countries nothing has changed yet, and where ever you go, you will still have to pay your way as nothing in life is free.

Also let me put it this way one of the reason why so many people voted to leave was very simple a majority of people felt they had been let down by the political class in this country.

I have do have one question for you to try and answer. You as a customer need to go and buy a new Iphone, but you only have one shop in town that sell's them at lets say £100.00. But down the road at the out of town shopping center, there is a another shop that sells the same Iphone but at £75.00, but there is a problem, you have been told you can't buy the I phone at £75.00 because the shop in your town which sell's the Iphone for £100.00 is owned by your family?

So what do you do? do you try to negotiate with your family for a better deal on a phone, but you find your family are not willing to give you a deal or to change things to boost sales and what is one new phone for a family member worth?

As I understand it most people regardless of family ties will go and buy the £75.00 phone down the road, why? Because it is cheaper, that my friend is the one big thing a lot of people are missing out here, why only limited your self to just one shop (Europe) when you could find 100 other shops (the rest of the world) that will be willing to make deals with you at a cheaper price, the old saying 'the world is your oyster' has never been so true right now, if you want something go and get it, don't rely on other people to do it for you other wise you will achieve nothing and you are young enough to make a big change to your life why stop in Europe when you have the whole wide world seeking out young British talent to help build up there own national companies.

You may not be old enough to remember them but the was a music group called Timbuk three they had a track out called the future so bright, I've gotta to wear shades


One final piece from history we once had a Prime minister say to us 'you have never had it so good', I am not sure that was true but over the coming months and year's don't be surprised to hear some one else say it again.
 
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Catlady19

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Ahem. Yes, "Democracy entitles all to vote". The problem with people these days is that we have too many"entitlements" and not enough "duties and responsibilities".

The ability to cast your vote in a democratic process is a civil right, civil duty and a great civil responsibility. It is NOT a bloody ENTITLEMENT!!!

IMO, only those who contribute to the smooth running of the society (be it through managing a big bank or volunteering in a homeless shelter) should have the privilege of voting. Not those who watch reruns of Jeremy Kyle show for days on end, taking breaks only to get high and to attempt to recreate perfect conditions for Jeremy's style paternity scenario.

Otherwise we end up in a situation like they had up on Oxfordshire recently; a young girl of 18 with THREE kids under the age of four complaining that the Council was mean and uncaring towards her and her young children, because she is ENTITLED to a flat next to her Mom's house, within Oxford.
Putting things in capitals is considered as shouting at people. This is not acceptable!
Blimey "...only those who contribute to the smooth running of society" how exactly do you choose who those people are? You appear to be insinuating by your comments that over half the country, who voted leave, are drug taking, out of work, morons. IMO you need to get off your high horse.
 

Catlady19

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Leaving the EU for me as a 19 year old is one of the worst things that could of happened to me. My freedom of movement just gone out of the door!
Your freedom of movement hasn't gone anywhere yet, we haven't even enacted article 50 yet, let alone negotiated on freedom of movement. Don't worry, I am sure you will still be able to party in Ibiza! ;)
 
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SunnyExpat

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They don't advertise the jobs in the UK. They use agencies who recruit in Eastern Europe en masse, then the agency takes a "cut" and the actual foreign labourers get LESS than the minimum wage, even though the employer APPEARS to be offering minimum wage. Foreign workers are then more "flexible" or pliable because they can't afford to walk out.

The Economist did a good video report on this. They looked particularly at Boston in Lincolnshire (where my parents lived, I know it well) because it's probably the main agricultural area in the UK.

I'm a Remain, but I'm not a head-in-the-sand Remain. People have real grievances. Time to take a look at them. Not everybody has the capacity to go to uni, but everyone should have the right to decent work SND decent pay.


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The problem is, decent pay to many is a lot more than minimum wage.
And you don't get more than the minimum wage if you're only going to be picking fruit.
But, hopefully they will get their dream.
As the 'immigrants' are no longer allowed to 'come over here. taking our jobs', and the fruit picking appears in the local job centre, the long term unemployed, getting social, housing benefit, child allowance, and whatever else is being handed out, who all voted leave, will see that they can go picking fruit all day now, instead of going to the pub and spending money they haven't earned. And hopefully May will be putting an austerity package in place for them, to give them their dream, and reduce government spending as the economy cools off.
Winners all round.
 
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tim2000s

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@Lynbarn, To me, that's not a description of freedom of movement. You're trying to suggest that the free movement stops UK consumers from buying from other parts of the world where we might get a better price. We all know that is a bit of a false argument - I can buy that mobile phone I wanted from China just as easily as from the UK, and still get it a lot cheaper now.

It will have customs tariffs on it, but with the best will in the world, whether in or out of the UK, we aren't going to want to allow the import of cheap products willy nilly that might affect UK based industries. We would still put trade tariffs in place. The whole steel example demonstrates this issue. The only real difference between now and then is that it will be the UK that is responsible for setting those tariffs rather than the EU.

What freedom of movement means to people like @james122 is that if they elect to take a job abroad, whether that's a bar tender in Munich, a finance executive in Paris or a surfing trainer in Portugal, under the current rules they can, exactly as anyone coming to the UK can. They can also go and look for work.

One would expect, at the very least, that in the process of exiting the EU, the UK would become a Schengen Annex II country, meaning Visa-free access to the EU for business or pleasure for 90 days in any 180 day period (but who knows what will end up happening).

If you want to work on the continent for more than 90 days, however, it becomes harder, as you will require sponsorship from a relevant company and have to go through resident permits and apply for a working Visa or a business visa. Much like a non-EU citizen already does coming to the UK. So a lot rests on the negotiations that take place.

The irony of the whole issue is abrupt. We are a country where we have a totally screwed up view of the world. We want controlled immigration from everywhere. But we want everyone of those that we don't want here to buy our goods and to invest in our country to build our industries. Sometimes you just have to shake your head in disbelief! :banghead::bag:
 
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hankjam

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The problem is, decent pay to many is a lot more than minimum wage.
And you don't get more than the minimum wage if you're only going to be picking fruit.
But, hopefully they will get their dream.
As the 'immigrants' are no longer allowed to 'come over here. taking our jobs', and the fruit picking appears in the local job centre, the long term unemployed, getting social, housing benefit, child allowance, and whatever else is being handed out, who all voted leave, will see that they can go picking fruit all day now, instead of going to the pub and spending money they haven't earned. And hopefully May will be putting an austerity package in place for them, to give them their dream, and reduce government spending as the economy cools off.
Winners all round.

This line about the minimum wage is all well and good but when ever I picked fruit it was piece rates, I got paid for what I picked. I understand that this applies to a lot of pickers and the good ones can actually, over a short period of time, earn a lot...
young, unattached, living in a caravan what else is there to do...
 
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SunnyExpat

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This line about the minimum wage is all well and good but when ever I picked fruit it was piece rates, I got paid for what I picked. I understand that this applies to a lot of pickers and the good ones can actually, over a short period of time, earn a lot...
young, unattached, living in a caravan what else is there to do...

'young, unattached, living in a caravan' isn't the typical stereotype of the disenchanted 'leave' voter though.
'young, unattached, living in a caravan' is the university student on a summer job, who does go fruit picking, alongside his European couterparts, and voted remain.
Or travelled to europe, and fruit picked there.
 

Lynbarn

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@Lynbarn, To me, that's not a description of freedom of movement. You're trying to suggest that the free movement stops UK consumers from buying from other parts of the world where we might get a better price. We all know that is a bit of a false argument - I can buy that mobile phone I wanted from China just as easily as from the UK, and still get it a lot cheaper now.

It will have customs tariffs on it, but with the best will in the world, whether in or out of the UK, we aren't going to want to allow the import of cheap products willy nilly that might affect UK based industries. We would still put trade tariffs in place. The whole steel example demonstrates this issue. The only real difference between now and then is that it will be the UK that is responsible for setting those tariffs rather than the EU.

What freedom of movement means to people like @james122 is that if they elect to take a job abroad, whether that's a bar tender in Munich, a finance executive in Paris or a surfing trainer in Portugal, under the current rules they can, exactly as anyone coming to the UK can. They can also go and look for work.

One would expect, at the very least, that in the process of exiting the EU, the UK would become a Schengen Annex II country, meaning Visa-free access to the EU for business or pleasure for 90 days in any 180 day period (but who knows what will end up happening).

If you want to work on the continent for more than 90 days, however, it becomes harder, as you will require sponsorship from a relevant company and have to go through resident permits and apply for a working Visa or a business visa. Much like a non-EU citizen already does coming to the UK. So a lot rests on the negotiations that take place.

The irony of the whole issue is abrupt. We are a country where we have a totally screwed up view of the world. We want controlled immigration from everywhere. But we want everyone of those that we don't want here to buy our goods and to invest in our country to build our industries. Sometimes you just have to shake your head in disbelief! :banghead::bag:


Hi Tim, I may not have put it in a way that everyone understands, but the point I was trying to make was why stay in a small pond when we could do so much better in a bigger one? No one knows what arrangements will come out of any negotiations with the EU or any other part of the World, for that matter, I am sure that not everyone will be equipped to become entrepreneurs overnight.

Already to day it has been announced on the BBC that at least one South African Company is planning to set up and buy some retail space on the UK high street.

I happen to agree with you that yes we do have a screwed up view of the World, it has moved on since the end of WW2 and we are no longer the center of the universe, but we still have a lot to offer the World and a lot to enrich all our lives as well.

People I know are saying that we will not have as many R&D project's in the UK after Brexit has taken part, but no one knows for sure, it is up to us to talk up just how brilliant this country is, if we can do it for sport (except football) then I am sure we can do it for our contribution to science based R&D projects, which will carry on, what we need is a change of mindset in that we need to have a nationally owned ideas company that buys in to say 50% of the cost of this research and will at the end of the day own 50% of the commercial developments that comes from all this R&D, if it should it be successful then there would be more money to put in to more R&D and what is more this country would be the benefit of all this cash rather that say the top 10% of company directors with salary's that they don't deserve as they have not brought anything to the table in the first place.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but like the new PM I hate the idea that if a company or a bank fails then why should the directors walk about with a golden hand shake for failure? and everyone else get nothing and loses there job, it not right in my book, but if you have put both the time and money into a product and it earns you loads of money then that has to be encouraged.
 

SunnyExpat

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Hi Tim, I may not have put it in a way that everyone understands, but the point I was trying to make was why stay in a small pond when we could do so much better in a bigger one? No one knows what arrangements will come out of any negotiations with the EU or any other part of the World, for that matter, I am sure that not everyone will be equipped to become entrepreneurs overnight.

Already to day it has been announced on the BBC that at least one South African Company is planning to set up and buy some retail space on the UK high street.

I happen to agree with you that yes we do have a screwed up view of the World, it has moved on since the end of WW2 and we are no longer the center of the universe, but we still have a lot to offer the World and a lot to enrich all our lives as well.

People I know are saying that we will not have as many R&D project's in the UK after Brexit has taken part, but no one knows for sure, it is up to us to talk up just how brilliant this country is, if we can do it for sport (except football) then I am sure we can do it for our contribution to science based R&D projects, which will carry on, what we need is a change of mindset in that we need to have a nationally owned ideas company that buys in to say 50% of the cost of this research and will at the end of the day own 50% of the commercial developments that comes from all this R&D, if it should it be successful then there would be more money to put in to more R&D and what is more this country would be the benefit of all this cash rather that say the top 10% of company directors with salary's that they don't deserve as they have not brought anything to the table in the first place.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but like the new PM I hate the idea that if a company or a bank fails then why should the directors walk about with a golden hand shake for failure? and everyone else get nothing and loses there job, it not right in my book, but if you have put both the time and money into a product and it earns you loads of money then that has to be encouraged.


I don't think she's quite as squeaky clean as you would like on that.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...gle-capital-group-philip-morris-a7133231.html
 
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tim2000s

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the point I was trying to make was why stay in a small pond when we could do so much better in a bigger one?
This is the point of view I don't understand. We are already part of a bigger global market. We export services globally as much as we export goods. There is limited likelihood of us re-balancing the UK economy to a manufacturing economy unless a huge amount of intervention is done at a government level to address it, so any hopes that this is somehow the outcome of the Brexit are somewhat rose-tinted I feel.

There is absolutely no evidence that by being part of the EU we forego trade anywhere else. For example, BAE has been selling fighter jets to many places, outside of the EU for years, as have our oil engineering experts. The argument that "We don't have to live with the EU trade deals with other countries that aren't as good as those we could negotiate ourselves" but outside the EU it doesn't matter if WTO tariffs are applied to EU countries as they are single digit works the other way too.

So what if there isn't a deal with China? The imposed tariffs are such it hardly matters either, except when China chooses to unilaterally penalise a counterparty, which they do when they like.

I think that often, too much emphasis is placed on the EU, as opposed to Europe in terms of trade "deals". Europe is our largest trading partner due to its proximity and the range of goods available (our top 5 trading partners for decades have been the US, Germany, France, the Netherlands and Ireland) not because we are/were part of the EU. What the EU single market does is make that trade substantially easier.

Already to day it has been announced on the BBC that at least one South African Company is planning to set up and buy some retail space on the UK high street.
I assume you are referring to Steinhoff buying Poundland. It's not like this is a Brexit based move. Steinhoff group now has 6,500 outlets in 30 countries, 22 manufacturing facilities and 40 retail brands, including Bensons for Beds and Harveys in the UK, Conforama in Europe, Pep and Ackermans in South Africa and Snooze in Australia. Steinhoff derives about 60% of its earnings in Europe and 34% in Africa. It was already a global, acquisitive, enterprise looking out for opportunities.

What we need is a change of mindset in that we need to have a nationally owned ideas company that buys in to say 50% of the cost of this research and will at the end of the day own 50% of the commercial developments that comes from all this R&D, if it should it be successful then there would be more money to put in to more R&D and what is more this country would be the benefit of all this cash rather that say the top 10% of company directors with salary's that they don't deserve as they have not brought anything to the table in the first place.
Interestingly, the UK hasn't ever been bad at R&D. What we've historically been terrible at is the Engineering piece that takes the R&D and turns it into a saleable product. There are countless examples where that IP has left the UK, both before and after 1975. Whilst I don't see a national ideas company ever having legs, I get the idea of a national fund to invest in innovation, with strings on commercial realisation of any product. The question comes back to "Where do you take the money from to do that?". It's essentially Venture Capital investment and that investment is not returned in around 75% of cases. Is that a risk that we, as the UK are willing to take with public money that could have gone elsewhere?

I hate the idea that if a company or a bank fails then why should the directors walk about with a golden hand shake for failure?
I agree with you on this. I think many others do too. If a company fails, no director has the right to a golden parachute. They should go down in the same way as the rest of the employees. That is, after all, what they are.
 
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SunnyExpat

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This is the point of view I don't understand. We are already part of a bigger global market. We export services globally as much as we export goods. There is limited likelihood of us re-balancing the UK economy to a manufacturing economy unless a huge amount of intervention is done at a government level to address it, so any hopes that this is somehow the outcome of the Brexit are somewhat rose-tinted I feel.

There is absolutely no evidence that by being part of the EU we forego trade anywhere else. For example, BAE has been selling fighter jets to many places, outside of the EU for years, as have our oil engineering experts. The argument that "We don't have to live with the EU trade deals with other countries that aren't as good as those we could negotiate ourselves" but outside the EU it doesn't matter if WTO tariffs are applied to EU countries as they are single digit works the other way too.

So what if there isn't a deal with China? The imposed tariffs are such it hardly matters either, except when China chooses to unilaterally penalise a counterparty, which they do when they like.

I think that often, too much emphasis is placed on the EU, as opposed to Europe in terms of trade "deals". Europe is our largest trading partner due to its proximity and the range of goods available (our top 5 trading partners for decades have been the US, Germany, France, the Netherlands and Ireland) not because we are/were part of the EU. What the EU single market does is make that trade substantially easier.


I assume you are referring to Steinhoff buying Poundland. It's not like this is a Brexit based move. Steinhoff group now has 6,500 outlets in 30 countries, 22 manufacturing facilities and 40 retail brands, including Bensons for Beds and Harveys in the UK, Conforama in Europe, Pep and Ackermans in South Africa and Snooze in Australia. Steinhoff derives about 60% of its earnings in Europe and 34% in Africa. It was already a global, acquisitive, enterprise looking out for opportunities.


Interestingly, the UK hasn't ever been bad at R&D. What we've historically been terrible at is the Engineering piece that takes the R&D and turns it into a saleable product. There are countless examples where that IP has left the UK, both before and after 1975. Whilst I don't see a national ideas company ever having legs, I get the idea of a national fund to invest in innovation, with strings on commercial realisation of any product. The question comes back to "Where do you take the money from to do that?". It's essentially Venture Capital investment and that investment is not returned in around 75% of cases. Is that a risk that we, as the UK are willing to take with public money that could have gone elsewhere?


I agree with you on this. I think many others do too. If a company fails, no director has the right to a golden parachute. They should go down in the same way as the rest of the employees. That is, after all, what they are.

They bought Poundland in spite of Brexit.
They tried to buy Argos first, then Darty.
They own a few other english companies already, or are majority shareholders.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/13/steinhoff-picks-up-poundland-for-597m/

http://www.steinhoffinternational.com/02-our-group.php
 

hankjam

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'young, unattached, living in a caravan' isn't the typical stereotype of the disenchanted 'leave' voter though.
'young, unattached, living in a caravan' is the university student on a summer job, who does go fruit picking, alongside his European couterparts, and voted remain.
Or travelled to europe, and fruit picked there.

I used the phrase loosely in the sense jobs are there, which can pay well, taken by non-UK, which don't need to be.

I have been fortunate that I've been employed most of my adult life, couple of gaps between post-docs but if it ever happened again I would do anything rather than visit the DWP.... and given the outlook in my world that might not be too far away...

wanders off to brush up CV, creatively....
 
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SunnyExpat

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I used the phrase loosely in the sense jobs are there, which can pay well, taken by non-UK, which don't need to be.

I have been fortunate that I've been employed most of my adult life, couple of gaps between post-docs but if it ever happened again I would do anything rather than visit the DWP.... and given the outlook in my world that might not be too far away...

wanders off to brush up CV, creatively....

You have to wonder why the well paid jobs don't go to the UK people then, and it would make more sense to correct that deficit, rather than make only UK people available for the jobs regardless.
But, hopefully May will force the UK people to take the jobs suddenly available, or lose all benefits.
If the objection was the 'immigrants coming here, taking our jobs' which led to the leave vote in the north, it's at least far closer for the north to go to Kent for the fruit picking season.
 

SunnyExpat

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I used the phrase loosely in the sense jobs are there, which can pay well, taken by non-UK, which don't need to be.

I have been fortunate that I've been employed most of my adult life, couple of gaps between post-docs but if it ever happened again I would do anything rather than visit the DWP.... and given the outlook in my world that might not be too far away...

wanders off to brush up CV, creatively....

If you can create 'trade negotiator' on that cv, you'll soon be employed, and very well off.
Probably in a very nice recently vacant building in London, (although they may be painting over some other financial institutes' name)
 
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SunnyExpat

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A lot seems to have happened there in the last three weeks.
 

SunnyExpat

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And now you have Boris as Foreign Secretary.

This will be a period for the history books.