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What place has this on the forum?

Discussion in 'Diabetes Discussions' started by hanadr, Nov 9, 2010.

  1. hanadr

    hanadr · Expert

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    I found this on the site


    >>>Diabetes and Ketones

    Ketones are a dangerous acid caused by the body burning its own fat, which happens when the body can’t get enough glucose from the blood to use for energy. Ketoacidosis is an extremely dangerous and at its most serious can lead to diabetic coma and death.

    Diabetes and Ketoacidosis

    People with diabetes can learn more about ketones, finding them, and what to do if you think you have ketoacidosis using the links below. <<<


    It's nonsense and of all places, this is one where it shouldn't be.
    Firstly, ketones aree NOT acids. secondly, even if they were, not all acids are harmful.
    Ketones are functional groups in organic chemistry, which in the body are breakdown products of fat metabolism. A result of normal weight loss!!
    Far from being harmful in themselves, they can be a valuable fuel. the brain can run perfectly well on ketones. We don't need to use glucose as a fuel. Fats do well, with glucose as a bit of a boost in times of stress.
    Ketones in the system associated with low blood glucose levels are merely a sign that fat is being burned. Only when associated with high blood glucose levels are they a symptom of a harmful process, probably ketoacidosis, which is a life threatening condition. Blood should be slightly alkaline.Changing its pH will affect the functioning of many biochemical processes.
    Hana
     
  2. Administrator

    Administrator Family member · Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Administrator

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    Hi Hana,

    Our internal team are checking this, thankyou for highlighting it. I'm not 100% convinced that the content is erroneous but I'll leave that to the experts.

    We are in the process of implementing a major content authentication program involving 15 healthcare professionals/diabetes experts with the aim of correcting and stamping pages.

    Regards,

    Admin
     
  3. Sid Bonkers

    Sid Bonkers Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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  4. noblehead

    noblehead Type 1 · Guru
    Retired Moderator

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    Hana,

    Ketones are indeed a acid and I have always been told to avoid ketones by every diabetes specialist I have ever seen. Only last year on the DAFNE course we were warned of the dangers of ketones and the long-term damage they can cause to the kidneys, hence why I wouldn't want to lower my carb intake to a level where my body started burning fat.

    I've said for some time now that DCUK need to clarify the position of whether ketones are dangerous over the long-term (i.e very low carb diets) before providing information on the community pages.

    Nigel
     
  5. Patch

    Patch Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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  6. hanadr

    hanadr · Expert

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    Some ketones may be acidic, but it's not the definition of that class of compound. Many are not even soluble in water, which is essential to being an acid.
    And YES many healthcare professionals don't know that ketones are in themselves not harmful, because many healthcare professionals know Zero organic or bio-chemistry. Or pharmacology for that matter.
    Hence the constant need to remind people that ketosis[benign] and ketoacidosis[potentially lethal] are different.
     
  7. ally5555

    ally5555 · Well-Known Member

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    Hana - most HCP do understand biochem - as a student I did Biochem, physiology, pharmacology etc . It is true that some do not keep up to date! I think you do have to try hard to keep it current!

    Ketones do cause confusion - mainly because of the differnces in Type 1 and 2.

    It is interesting tho that anecdotally many atkins type dieters do complain of feeling unwell when they are producing alot of ketones. It may be safe to burn them as fuel but not everyone appears to adapt to them - that is not science just my own observations !

    Ally
     
  8. jopar

    jopar · Well-Known Member

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    Hana

    I take it that you've never had DKA?

    Ketones are one of the signals that things are going seriously wrong when you a diabetic combine this with a high blood glucose reading then if you don't treat the situation you are going to be in very big problems...

    I know what you are going to say, concerning the extreme low carb diet, ketones are just nothing more than an harmless by-product etc etc.. This may be so for the non-diabetic with a lot of blubber to burn but for the diabetic it's a different ball game more so for those who are T1 diabetic and T2's who require insulin. Because Ketones could be signalling that your body is struggling and you'll heading for DKA if you don't start treating it...

    And believe me if you've ever experienced DKA you would be so lame about the condition... DKA still sends a shudder down my spin and the last time I suffered this was over 19 years ago..
     
  9. hanadr

    hanadr · Expert

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    no jopar I have not had DKA.
    I have seen my T1 husband through Intensive care with it though. It was caused by a doctor, who mistook a high sugar coma for a hypo and gave him IV glucose.[ In the days before home meters.
    I know ketones are a symptom, but when combined with High blood glucose. With low blood glucose there's no problem.
    This one of the benefits of the low carb way with NORMAL blood Glucose and low doses of medication. Getting to DKA is much less likely.
    I am well aware of how dangerous it is.
    Hana
     
  10. Zoroaster

    Zoroaster · Member

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    The National Library of Medicine (admittedly a US web site and therefore to be treated with the highest levels of suspicion) has a good article about ketones in urine.

    I won't quote huge swathes of the article, but this was interesting:

    Dunno about everyone else, but when I see the word acid I naturally assume something is, well, an acid. I accept that Beta-hydroxybutyric acid is not technically a ketone it is a carboxylic acid, still an acid.

    There are three common definitions of an acid, one is that most acids are aqueous solutions, or can be dissolved in water and have a pH value of less than 7. I can't find (what I consider) a reliable answer for the pH of Acetone, but one site indicates a pH value of between 6 and 7 making it mildly acidic bordering on neutral (and of course it's soluble in water, watch out for your nail polish remover).

    Articles used to research this post:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid
    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003585.htm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketone_bodies

    Hope this helps.
     
  11. hanadr

    hanadr · Expert

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    You cannot determine the pH of a substance that is insoluble in water.
    I'm merely being pedantic about chemistry. I HATE careless use of language. I also hate the use molecular symbols instead of writing out a chemical name. That's because the symbol represents a single molecule.

    pH
    (from potential of Hydrogen) the logarithm of the reciprocal of hydrogen-ion concentration in gram atoms per liter;moles even??[provides a measure on a scale from 0 to 14 of the acidity or alkalinity of a solution (where 7 is neutral and greater than 7 is more basic and less than 7 is more acidic);
    And YES I do understant that
     
  12. Hobs

    Hobs Type 2 · Master

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    Good grief ... where are all the moderators?

    The way this thread is going we could soon be on the subject of hydroxly radicals where only the chemistry masters amongst us would understand anything!

    IMHO its time to close this one down.
     
  13. cugila

    cugila · Master

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    We are around Hobs and Monitoring.......if the members wish to discuss something amongst themselves quite civily....we really don't see a need to intervene. There may well be some 'Scientists' / Chemists out there who are interested in all this technical stuff ?

    Laissez-faire ! :D

    cugila
    Forum Monitor
     
  14. jopar

    jopar · Well-Known Member

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    There is a condition called Euglycemic ketoacidosis where T1 diabetics become DKA even though their blood sugar levels are in the normal range heres a link

    http://pjms.com.pk/issues/janmar08/article/bc2.html

    Just over 19 years ago I landed up in hospital for the best part of a month with DKA at no time before, during or after did my BG hit any higher than 8mmol/l, I went through a period of time doing this but since my last stay I haven't had another bout of DKA, even avoided ketones when I had the norvak virus several years :shock:

    The information given is fair information and in the best interest of the diabetic...
     
  15. Jen&Khaleb

    Jen&Khaleb · Well-Known Member

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    As a parent I would have to put Ketones in the very bad category. Being sick will produce them even if blood glucose levels are relatively low. Once DKA starts it is nearly impossible to stop without medical assistance. There are obviously big differences when it comes to T1 and T2, adult and child, insulin and non-insulin user when it comes to what may be considered a safe amount of ketones. I believe ketones are a huge problem while pregnant.

    Has a T2 who's low carbing actually used a ketone blood meter to see how many ketones they actually produce? I'd be interested to know...
     
  16. Matt1212

    Matt1212 · Well-Known Member

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    Hi Jen,

    As a non-diabetic (parent of type 1) I have experimented with eating less than 50g carb everyday for the last 10 months . Tested my ketones on about 6 occasions , average 0.2 - 0.4 , once hit 1.1

    So low levels to be honest , with my normal BG - no issues and I would imagine even with higher BG they would be OK

    Contrast with my 6 yr old who when sick with a stomach bug went to 2.0 ketones in the space of a few hours.

    thanks
    Matt
     
  17. Jen&Khaleb

    Jen&Khaleb · Well-Known Member

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    Matt, thanks for that. I figured it wouldn't be very high.
     
  18. Cliff2

    Cliff2 · Member

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    The principal problem in DKA is the production of β-hydroxybutyrate which, although known as a "ketone body" is not, in fact, a ketone but a carboxylic acid. Ketones are structured R-(C=0)-R whereas carboxylic acids are R-(C=O)-OH.

    Regards

    Cliff
    (Chartered Chemist)
     
  19. noblehead

    noblehead Type 1 · Guru
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    Admin,

    Just noticed on the community pages that this advice has now been amended, so did the health-care professionals you consulted verify that ketones are not in fact dangerous or harmful to the kidneys?

    Just need to know, as I said previously my consultant seems to think they are detrimental to the kidneys and the following nhs information would appear to suggest this also:

    http://www.cks.nhs.uk/patient_informati ... t/ketosis#

    Nigel
     
  20. IanD

    IanD Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    If you are like that, you are ill - seriously - & not blithely breathing out ketones from a well condition. If you have all those symptoms, you will not be eating too many carbs & raising your blood glucose.

    My wife complains that my breath is ketonic in the night, but I can assure you I am well. I won my tennis last night & was not tired nor sick after 90 minutes vigorous outdoor activity.
     
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