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Why cant insulin be main control?

Discussion in 'Insulin' started by gbswales, Nov 26, 2019.

  1. gbswales

    gbswales · Well-Known Member

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    I am type 2 but on insulin rapid 3 daily plus night time lantus. I have often wondered why I instead of dieting I cant simply adjust my insulin to the food I want to eat. I am sure there are good reasons but still curious.
     
  2. Mr_Pot

    Mr_Pot Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Insulin doesn't neutralise glucose, like alkali neutralises acid. Insulin is used to enable the glucose to be moved into the muscles and be stored as fat. If you increase your Insulin to cover increased glucose from eating more carbs you will put on weight unless you drastically increase exercise. Meanwhile you will increase the Insulin circulating in your body which can have other harmful effects.
     
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  3. urbanracer

    urbanracer Type 1 · Moderator
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    You're a T2 which means you have insulin resistance. The risk for you is increasing insulin and increasing resistance leading to a downward spiral.

    Dieting gets rid of some (or indeed all) of the fatty tissue that's normally associated with insulin resistance.

    It is not inconceivable that you could come off meds in the longer term.
     
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  4. Marie 2

    Marie 2 LADA · Well-Known Member

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    If you are a type 2, it is a insulin resistance problem. So type 2's are already making more insulin, just not using it right. I believe over time your pancreas can wear out and not produce enough, but it is more of a not using properly as not having enough. I think if you just try to add more insulin without doing anything else your insulin resistance just keeps going up.

    Some type 2's can just tweak their diet some (less junk food) and lose weight and in my husbands case he takes metformin and start to reverse it as my husband has done. He does not low carb.

    40% of type 1's are misdiagnosed as type 2's at first. It still happens way too often, so if things don't make sense sometimes you could be type 1 and not a type 2. Always keep that in mind, just in case.
     
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  5. jjraak

    jjraak Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Good answers above.

    Dr Fung, describes it nicely as like a tokyo subway station

    as it's so packed inside, the commuters don't/can't all get off, so to get more of the waiting commuters ONTO the train, you need more attendants to push people ON to the train.

    which means fewer can get off at the next staion as it's even MORE crammed,
    which then means at the next station even fewer get off, meaning you now need MORE attendants to PUSH commuters ONTO the train, ad infinitum

    The solution isn't to keep employing more and more attendants to push people on,
    the solution is to find out why there are so many commuters unable to get off, Because THAT is THE Problem

    Commuters being the Glucose, the attendants being the Insulin
    the solution being diet..(lowering carbs in particular)

    or something like that

    the diabetes code well worth the read, imho.
     
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  6. Kim Possible

    Kim Possible Prefer not to say · Expert

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    Please bear in mind this question has not been raised in the T2 sub forum.
    As a T1, I know that taking insulin does not necessarily lead to weight gain regardless of exercise.
    Although the OP has T2, this thread may be read by people with other types of diabetes who should not be encouraged to avoid their insulin for fear of weight gain. This can be incredibly dangerous.
    Please consider all members of the forum when responding to non type specific threads.
     
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  7. Mr_Pot

    Mr_Pot Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    The OP is suggesting that he could eat as much as he wanted and cover it by increasing his Insulin and asking if there are good reasons why not. I just gave him two reasons. Would you say there were no downsides to increasing Insulin?
     
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  8. Ellenor2000

    Ellenor2000 · Well-Known Member

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    This post has been retracted.
     
  9. porl69

    porl69 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    @Mr_Pot I have to agree with @Kim Possible on this. It is posted in Medication and Drugs and not a type 2 thread. Jo Public do tend to skip thru posts without really reading them carefully. As a type 1 that could be very damaging/dangerus
    There is no downsides to taking more insulin.....at the moment I am full of a cold and in a 30 hour period I have taken around 170u of insulin to keep my BGs below 20 (normally I use around 50-60u a day). If my body needs the extra insulin it needs extra insulin
     
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  10. LittleGreyCat

    LittleGreyCat Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I know someone who was diagnosed with T2 and decided that they weren't going to change their lifestyle. They would eat what they wanted and balance it with insulin.
    I saw them a short while back and they said that it wasn't going well. They were still overweight and frankly looked very unwell.

    Anecdotal and not a proof, but I think it depends on why you are taking insulin.
    If you aren't producing any then (not from personal experience) you can chose what you eat and what insulin you take to compensate.

    If you are still producing your own insulin and your main problem is that your body can't use it properly then taking more and more insulin can end up as a vicious circle of increased insulin resistance and increased insulin dosage.

    As this is a general thread, I think there are at least two answers which relate to why you are taking insulin.
    T1, do your own thing baby!
    T2 with IR and high blood insulin levels, think very seriously before you whack even more insulin in.
     
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  11. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I have met many insulin users who would rather die (figuratively speaking here) than reduce their insulin dose. I have two mates who when they discover a bgl below 20 will stuff their face with digestive biscuits and honeybars as a matter requiring immediate attention. They exist with bgl;s in the 20's and 30's rather than try to control properly. Consequently one of my mates suffers severe hypo's since he boluses very high doses, but may not eat properly after and has the inevitable yo-yo reaction. As a T2 myself I find this approach to be worrying since for me a reading above 8 is counterproductive to my life.

    Is it the way they are taught how to control by the Consultant? Is this why all the HCP's I deal with insist I eat starchy foods and 5 a day veg? What does DAPHNE say?

    When I was in hospital recently and adjusting from LC to hospital stodge I had bgl in the 15's to 30's and I was told by the doctor that anything under 15 was a good level, and that when I managed to drop down to the normal or prediabetic range they were intensely worried, I was too low. Even my GP who supports my LCHF diet tells me I should not let my bgl go below 7. ********* is a word that replaces an alliteration as used by the LibDems.

    Edited by Mod
     
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    #11 Oldvatr, Nov 27, 2019 at 2:38 PM
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2019
  12. zand

    zand Type 2 · Expert

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    I think a healthy diet is important for all of us whether T1 or T2 or any of the other variants.

    Nothing wrong with matching carbs to insulin...as long as you aren't overweight and/or have insulin resistance. This is most relevant to T2s but can also apply to T1s. I have seen a few T1s here over the years who have developed insulin resistance and 'double diabetes'. This has to be the worst of both worlds....to need insulin but to have a body that can't use it properly.....which means they need even more insulin.

    Whilst this thread isn't in the T2 section it is by a T2.

    The title asks why can't insulin be the main control. Surely it is the main control for T1s...after the honeymoon period anyway? So the question isn't relevant for T1s. Of course T1s need insulin they don't have any/enough of their own.....regardless of diet.

    T2s usually have too much insulin in their system but their bodies can't use it. That's why adding even more insulin to a broken metabolism is a very bad idea.
     
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  13. Marie 2

    Marie 2 LADA · Well-Known Member

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    @Mr_Pot I agree with @Kim Possible
    The problem is you made a wide range statement of "insulin moving into muscle and becoming fat, increasing insulin causes weight gain." So not true.

    That kind of statement is misleading in many ways and especially to a type 1 reading it because it's not true. You do not gain weight by taking more insulin, you can not make a blanket statement like that. It is hugely detrimental to a person that needs more insulin to control their BG's. If you eat too much for your personal needs then you gain weight.
     
  14. zand

    zand Type 2 · Expert

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    Mr Pot was speaking directly to the OP who is T2 so what he said was correct.

    We have all seen the pictures of emaciated T1s before insulin was available....so I am not sure why anyone is arguing about insulin causing weight gain. In the case of T1s it's a necessary, healthy weight gain because it helps the body use the glucose. In the case of a perhaps already overweight T2 it's an unhealthy weight gain.
     
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  15. Marie 2

    Marie 2 LADA · Well-Known Member

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    @zand because he specifically is saying more insulin means weight gain and that's not true.

    That's a dangerous blanket statement to make if it causes someone to think that if they take the insulin they need to keep Bg's at the right level they will gain weight. That statement is not true and can be harmful to anyone that has to take insulin.
     
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    #15 Marie 2, Nov 27, 2019 at 7:31 PM
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  16. zand

    zand Type 2 · Expert

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    Would it be a good idea to move this thread to the T2 with insulin section?

    Edit....because all.this discussion about T1s isn't really helping the OP @DCUKMod ?
     
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    #16 zand, Nov 27, 2019 at 7:44 PM
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  17. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    #
    Technically what is stated here is scientifically correct, It is the Krebs or Citric Cycle if you want to google it. Insulin is the storage hormone, and it is an enabler for glucose to enter the muscle cell to either be used immediately for energy or to be stored in the cell as glucogen. Because glucogen is a hybrid molecule of glucose and water, it adds weight. When energy is burnt the glucogen is used and the water enters the blood stream again. So yes, insulin allows the glucogen stores to build up, thus adding body weight. No insulin, no storage, Same for T1 and T2 alike except where there is insulin resistance preventing it.

    This is why a low energy or low carb diet or a fast will produce immediate weight loss since the glucogen stores get used first, and all the water is released and then excreted as normal. Then weight loss bottoms out before the lipid fat is broken down later. The initial weight loss comes from losing water from the muscle cells.
     
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  18. Mr_Pot

    Mr_Pot Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    If the OP is currently balancing his diet with his Insulin, then it is reasonable to assume he is intending to eat more carbs and keep his BG in check with more Insulin. Eating more carbs is likely to result in weight gain, which of course people might find desirable or not.
     
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  19. DCUKMod

    DCUKMod I reversed my Type 2 · Master
    Staff Member Administrator

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    Ladies and gents, could we please concentrate on helping the original poster, rather than bickering amongst ourselves?

    @gbswales opens his thread with the words, "I am Type 2 but on insulin.......". That is quite clear.
     
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  20. Resurgam

    Resurgam Type 2 (in remission!) · Expert

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    The question is phrased a little oddly - it is as though the OP has been told to inject a certain number of units without the option of reducing carbs and insulin to suit his circumstances and wishes.
     
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