1. Get the Diabetes Forum App for your phone - available on iOS and Android.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Guest, we'd love to know what you think about the forum! Take the Diabetes Forum Survey 2021 »
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Diabetes Forum should not be used in an emergency and does not replace your healthcare professional relationship. Posts can be seen by the public.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Guest, stay home, stay safe, save the NHS. Stay up to date with information about keeping yourself and people around you safe here and GOV.UK: Coronavirus (COVID-19). Think you have symptoms? NHS 111 service is available here.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Find support, ask questions and share your experiences. Join the community »

Why won't the NHS tell you the secret to treating diabetes?

Discussion in 'Diabetes Discussions' started by hyponilla, Nov 22, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,615
    Likes Received:
    3,458
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Wait. It wasn't my intention to imply that your HbA1c and thus estimated mean glucose is poor. I was opining that it's slightly elevated above what I would regard as 'normal'. The context was that, with this in mind, I would expect to see a slightly raised fasting insulin trying to maintain a lower fasting glucose, and that if this were not the case, it would indicate perhaps an insulin deficiency. I felt this was relevant to the discussion regarding beta cell function.

    I'm not in the business of judging other people's efforts. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 3
  2. Tannith

    Tannith · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    378
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Thanks Jim. I did not take it as a criticism. Far from being offended I'm very glad that you drew my attention to the conversion table which I knew nothing about,and to the corresponding level of HbA1c. I am grateful to you for doing that. "Poor" was my own interpretation of the 6.5 figure" I didn't think you were unreasonable or personally judging me. I judge myself.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  3. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    5,259
    Likes Received:
    2,592
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Your hb1ac of 39 is not prediabetic. That begins at 42mmol. https://www.diabetes.co.uk/pre-diabetes.html.

    Be careful not to mix up hb1ac in % (5.7 for you) , fbg in mmol (unknown) and average bgl in mmol (6.5). They look similar but are all quite different.

    You keep referring to fgb as the criteria on which you are basing many decisions. And not even a measured fbg but a converted equivalent bgl from hb1ac. This is fraught with issues. Not least a false equivalence and dawn phenomenon. It is one of a range of measures that need to be seen in their entirety. Each measure has its own benefits and limitations. Consider them all not a single one.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  4. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    5,372
    Likes Received:
    2,294
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Especially as some of us, including me, never reduce our fbg due to dawn phenomenon doing its thing the moment we open our eyes, regardless of what happens for the rest of the day.

    Even after 9 successful years, my fbg is 8+ every morning. It's just the way some bodies work.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  5. Tannith

    Tannith · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    378
    Trophy Points:
    103
    At diagnosis B cell function is reduced to 50% of normal. (below) Further there is only a 50% chance of those beta cells being restored to their normal function after 10 years of diabetes.(above https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6399621/) Which you challenge apparently because you deny that the beta cells malfunction in T2.

    The Pathologic Basis of Disease Progression
    At the diagnosis of type 2 diabetes, β-cell function is typically reduced to 50% of normal [as shown] by HOMA modeling and to a greater extent on dynamic testing (1,18). Despite the initial effect of diet and oral therapy to lower glucose, observational studies have shown that disease progression is associated with inexorably declining β-cell function and progression to insulin commencement, with relatively minor changes in underlying insulin resistance. …...Postmortem pancreatic pathology studies, based on presence of staining for cells that contain insulin, have suggested that β-cell mass is significantly reduced in type 2 diabetes in comparison with age-, sex-, and BMI-matched control individuals without diabetes (2). Although it is accepted that increased apoptosis plays a role in decreased β-cell mass over time, pancreatic pathology findings in a large cohort of European subjects indicate that apoptosis alone is insufficient to explain the profound islet dysfunction in established type 2 diabetes (22). Other factors must contribute to the described decrease in cells that stain positive for insulin in the pancreatic islets. https://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/39/11/2080
     
    #125 Tannith, Nov 27, 2020 at 7:06 PM
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020
  6. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    5,259
    Likes Received:
    2,592
    Trophy Points:
    198
    I’m about to read the paper you link to but first comments are that for every paper saying one thing they’ll be another saying something slightly or totally different. A consensus of good solid studies helps form an opinion better than a single paper.
    Secondly I’ll be looking for what the “diet” is that links to disease progression.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  7. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    5,372
    Likes Received:
    2,294
    Trophy Points:
    178
    All I can say is Not Necessarily.

    We are all different. There have been several sub-types of type 2 diabetes identified already. There are many different causes and triggers identified for type 2 diabetes. It's not as straightforward as you seem to think.

    Different research also uses different parameters within a sub-type.

    Finally, nothing I can see in the research you have posted shows that you can diet your way down to reanimation of the dead cells they describe.

    You will make your own decisions. Choose wisely.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

    Messages:
    17,998
    Likes Received:
    12,061
    Trophy Points:
    298
    Do you not think that might just be due to the fact that their pancreatic function has been destroyed by decades of injecting exogenous insulin?
    It may be the treatment of their T2 that has caused the problem and not the T2 itself? .....
    probably not I guess.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. VashtiB

    VashtiB Type 2 · Moderator
    Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,347
    Likes Received:
    778
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Hi Tannith,

    I haven't read all the replies yet- I just felt so strongly I wanted to post. I am less than 18 months after diagnosis- I've lost over 30 kgs- so according to your theory I should now have cured my diabetes or at lest reduced it- not my experience at all. Any amount of arbs over 10 grams in one meal and my blood sugars spike. Probably less than when I first started but certainly enough to know I am still a diabetic. Your theory would lead me to despair- sorry. I want so much to be able to get to a stage where I can tolerate carbs but I don't ever expect to. If I still had any theory that I Ould just lower my calories and fix it I would but that is what set me up for diabetes. I've restricted my calories for years and years- my husband an testify. My doctors never believed me because I would stop losing weight. They believe I'm incapable of counting calories but let me say I can calorie count with the best of them. For me low calorie will not cure my diabetes .
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Hug Hug x 2
  10. Tannith

    Tannith · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    378
    Trophy Points:
    103
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00125-017-4504-z
    https://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwncla...e/files/Taylor et al Cell Metabolism 2018.pdf


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6399621/
    https://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal/#publicinformation
    Hi Vashti
    I am so sorry to hear that this diet has not worked for you. I would have thought it would have done with a weight loss of 30 kgs. Is it possible you have had T2 longer than you think - you mention restricting your calories for years and years? I have put some links above that explain the diet better than I can. It is not my theory of course, but that of Prof Taylor and colleagues at Newcastle University, where they have an extra sensitive MRI scanner which can measure pancreatic fat.
     
  11. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

    Messages:
    17,998
    Likes Received:
    12,061
    Trophy Points:
    298
    A very important thing to state.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,615
    Likes Received:
    3,458
    Trophy Points:
    198
    It seems I had undiagnosed diabetes for at least ten years (add another ten for the pathology) and gained weight when I reversed it whilst not counting a single calorie or ever going hungry. Just saying. Obviously we're not all the same.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Tannith

    Tannith · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    378
    Trophy Points:
    103
    I'm going to go by FBG readings on my monitor and keep dieting until they get down to 4 or just over, as that, I think, is normal FBG for non diabetics. I have no access to fancy tests like insulin levels.
     
  14. ert

    ert Type 1 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,064
    Likes Received:
    2,734
    Trophy Points:
    198
    I suggest fasting BS's of constantly 4 isn't normal or a realistic goal, due to hormones, sleep patterns, genetics etc. Normal non-diabetic fasting is 3.9 to 5.4 mmols/l.
    https://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes...ext=The results of a fasting,100 to 125 mg/dl)
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  15. VashtiB

    VashtiB Type 2 · Moderator
    Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,347
    Likes Received:
    778
    Trophy Points:
    173
    I'm sure I haven't had it for more than a year before my diagnosis as I have had my HbA1 tested every year as my family have a history of diabetes. So the longest I could have had it is less than 3 years- less than 2.5 years in fact.

    All I really wanted you to know is that your theory doesn't explain everyone- there are others here that it also doesn't explain so maybe the theory is wrong or incomplete. The problem with that theory is that if that had been what I heard first rather than LCHF I would still be getting higher blood sugar levels and wouldn't have lost the weight I had. It is the very first time I have lost weight without calorie counting. It is such a relief to be able to eat and not be hungry. Also I am so much less hungry without carbs so m y baseline hunger is so much less. I feel almost 'normal' for the first time in a long time. I'm still diabetic and still would really love it if I weren't but this site has given me a sustainable life. I can keep low. arb forever- not what I would choose but a choice I make to stop the complications on diabetes . The people here are amazing and have helped me from the start. I am sorry but your theory would led me to despair because I would fail.
     
    • Winner Winner x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Tannith

    Tannith · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    378
    Trophy Points:
    103
    I'm glad you have found a diet that suits you. Good luck.
     
  17. hankjam

    hankjam Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,485
    Likes Received:
    13,168
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Been low carbing for sometime now and often after a meal I will be able to say.... I could eat that all over again, no problems.
    The family, who have had a standard amount of carbs along with their meal.... they just say, no way.

    I've eaten and yet I am neither full nor hungry and it's okay.

    You sound to be doing just fine @VashtiB
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Tannith

    Tannith · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    378
    Trophy Points:
    103
  19. Mr_Pot

    Mr_Pot Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,127
    Likes Received:
    1,898
    Trophy Points:
    178
    • Like Like x 1
  20. DCUKMod

    DCUKMod I reversed my Type 2 · Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    14,302
    Likes Received:
    8,225
    Trophy Points:
    298
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  • Meet the Community

    Find support, connect with others, ask questions and share your experiences with people with diabetes, their carers and family.

    Did you know: 7 out of 10 people improve their understanding of diabetes within 6 months of being a Diabetes Forum member. Get the Diabetes Forum App and stay connected on iOS and Android

    Grab the app!
  • Tweet with us

  • Like us on Facebook